- This topic has 231 replies, 37 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 12 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Not very..Guys I think I should have said lesser races rather than minor races when I was talking about BrGerard…….Mill Reef went on to win
the Derby
the King George and
The Arc
where the opposition is somewhat tuffer most years. No disrespect meant to BG at all…..sorry!!!
I don’t know why you’re bothering Joni. Anyone who watched that race and takes the view that CDA was a threat to Frankel is beyond reasoning with. They’ve decided to take a stance against the great Cecil horse and nothing the horse did on a track was ever going to change that.
In this life there are always a handful of people who are going to take the contrary view to everybody else about a subject. Think that ginger half-wit Durham on Talksport. He makes a living out of adopting the opposite view to the majority. It’s pointless contesting the view. It isn’t an honest one but an entrenched mindset, disingenuous and completely unworthy of engaging in sensible debate.
Enjoy your memories of the great horse and don’t let anybody cloud that enjoyment with their groundless nonsense.
You are right Hammy. Cheers mate.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
As Joni says CDA had his prime conditions, he was bang in form he had no excuses, he is the second highest rated horse in the World yet was comfortably and convincingly beaten.
The boost Excelebration gave to Frankel’s form can’t be understated, he is clear and away the second best miler around yet Frankel didn’t just beat this horse he destroyed him time after time.
The results section in the RP describes it as: 1.Frankel ‘cruised up to lead over 1f out, shaken up to assert final furlong’.
2. CDA ‘ridden and headed over 1f out, stayed on but readily held’.Says it all really. And I confess I spent Friday night viewing CDA videos and being just a bit terrified.
To a large extent Nick Mordin is talking bollocks. As Joni said, racetrack records are littered with often fairly anonymous horses, who just happened to be in the right place, at the right time, with the race panning out the right way to enable the record to be set. It is not like athletics, where the fastest man or woman will record the fastest time. Jesus, if time ratings for horses were as reliable as athletics the bookies would be on the bones of their asses and we’d all be sitting back smoking big Jimmy Savile cigars (Well King Edward ones at least)
With regards to prize money there is no case to answer. Winning the biggest pot doesn’t make you the best horse. Perhaps in a world where breeding value were not an issue, owners would target the biggest prize funds and it might result in the best horses assembling to contest those races. As it is, the classics and other Group 1 races provide the targets owners want to see their horses collect. I have heard the term "Globe trotting superstar" used to describe horses who travel the world chasing the big money and whom end up with sizeable career prize money. In some ways I find the expression to be a euphemism for a talented animal not quite good enough to cut it at the top. For example, Red Cadeaux was introduced as such on the BBC coverage of Royal Ascot but he was put well in his place by Sea Moon, who himself continues to fail at the highest level. Decent horses but they have their limitations and chase money or group 1 races in countries where it is easier to obtain.
Pretty much just cheap chamber pot stirring from Mordin. What next? They will be saying that Nijinsky had bigger testicles than Frankel has.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Actually, I think that was a good piece from Nick Mordin – and he made many good points. (thanks for posting).
In what sport, other than racing, do the best competitors only stay in one country competing against the same opponents again and again, when there are other genuine competitors to take on in different conditions?
Is the best tennis player there has ever been, one that wins Wimbledon 10 times but never wins another Grand Slam?
I
DO
put credibility on being able to travel, compete on different surfaces and beat the best other countries have to offer in their race conditions. It’s very conceited to think the horses Frankel has beaten makes him the greatest horse ever. Not so much rose-tinted as Looney tunes.
I think the
greatest
sadness, as I mentioned in another post, is that if you asked Frankel if he wants to go overseas and prove himself, he’d raise an eyebrow that would suggest that was a damn crass question – of course he does, he wants to be the undisputed champion of all time!!
…then again, he would have to have eyebrows and be able to talk, but you get the gist.
Zip
I take the point about track records, but if frankel really is "the one", the greatest of all time, surely he’d have broken some track record along the way?
I can just imagine the conversation in 50 years time. we tell some young racing fan about the best ever, frankel.
they innocently ask, why was he the best ever? I presume he broke all records, that he took on and crushed all-comers in all the big international races, and so on?
no, we answer. he was the best ever because willie carson and clare balding said so
no, we answer. he was the best ever because willie carson and clare balding said so
And then we will add "oh but so did Andre Fabre, Aiden O Brien, Sir Michael Stoute, Pat Eddery, Johnny Murtagh, Sir Peter O Sullevan, John Magnier, Jim Mcgrath, Timeform, The Racing Post, the majority of the population of the United Kingdom and the majority of race fans around the world. In fact all but a few Irish guys with chips on their shoulders!!!"
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
don’t get me wrong. it’s obvious that frankel is a brilliant, brilliant horse. his 2000 guineas win was off the hook. an astonishing performance, I didn’t think i’d ever see that in a classic. to just rip the race apart from the off like that.
but best of all time? I think mordin isn’t far wide of the mark. surely you do need more than "opinion", however wise those giving the opinions may be, to earn that particular moniker on merit.
take a horse who was the widely acknowledged "best of all time" before frankel came along, sea bird 2. Not only did he crush his derby field on the bridle, but he also slammed a stellar field in the arc. surely a greater achievement than smashing up excelebration over and over again.
or dancing brave, who beat one of the strongest arc fields ever with a dazzling turn of foot.
also, I can’t but help think we’ve been here before. 3 years ago, plenty of people on the forums were suggesting that sea the stars was one of the best horses of all time, if not the best. now frankel comes along, he hardly gets a mention.
I can’t help but think that a lot of this is "flavour of the moment" stuff. expect another couple of years to go by and some other horse will be beating up his opposition and will be widely trumpted as horse racings "G.O.A.T"
I can’t help but think that a lot of this is
"flavour of the moment"
stuff. expect another couple of years to go by and some other horse will be beating up his opposition and will be widely trumpted as horse racings "G.O.A.T"
Between the year 1986 (Dancing Brave) and 2009 (Sea The Stars) Timeform rated just
one
horse at 140, that being Dubai Millenium…
Between 1972 (Brigadier Gerrard and possibly Mill Reef?) and 2011 (Frankel)
NOTHING
achieved a Timeform rating of
better
than 140…
So where exactly was the
"flavour of the month"
in all those
years
in between EGS?
Value Is EverythingPeople keep going on about what Frankel did to Excelebration as if he’s the only or the best horse he ever beat.
Think back to Goldikova. If someone had told us that a miler was going to come along and make her kook ordinary then another miler was going come along and make him look like a handicapper you’d have thought they were mad.
Goldikova was the Queen of the turf a goddess or racing to maany on both sides of the Atlantic. Along came Canford Cliffs hailed as the best I’ve ever sat on buy Champion Jockey Richard Hughes and the best I’ve ever trained by classic winning trainer Richard Hannon.
Describes as a monster and in a different league to Hannon’s very talented Paco Boy by Hughsie, few could argue with him that he was an awesome horse, a brilliant miler as he racked up the wins.
Held up in his work he only managed 3rd in the 2000 guineas but once the cobwebs were out he won 5 consecutive Group 1’s including the Irish 2000 Guineas, The St James Palace Stakes, The Sussex Stakes The Locking and the Queen Anne Stakes
Then along comes this young whippersnapper Frankel who without as much as breaking sweat makes this brilliant miler look like a one paced handicapper.
Excuses were made and Canford Cliffs retired but rumour has it they thought continuing was senseless as despite his undoubted talent he could never beat Frankel.
Frankel went on to prove that no matter what excuses had been made, he was every bit as good as that defeat of Canford Cliffs made him look.
Frankel in his entire career had only one questionable performance to his name but after his defeat of Canford Cliffs he put together one stunning performance after another.
Timeform decided his overall form was deserving in a massive hike in rating which is not hard to understand. It wasn’t any one performances it was the combination of one mind blowing performance after the other.
I may not agree with his ousting of Sea-Bird but there’s no doubt in my mind he’s the first horse since Sea-Bird won the Arc that they could have justified doing it with.
Frankel was so good no one not me, not anyone will ever convince his loyal fans he’s not the greatest of all time so why bother?
He succeeded where others like Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Nijinsky etc. They had their chances they simply weren’t good enough or never put enough sparkling performance together like he did.
People keep going on about what Frankel did to Excelebration as if he’s the only or the best horse he ever beat.
Think back to Goldikova. If someone had told us that a miler was going to come along and make her kook ordinary then another miler was going come along and make him look like a handicapper you’d have thought they were mad.
Goldikova was the Queen of the turf a goddess or racing to maany on both sides of the Atlantic. Along came Canford Cliffs hailed as the best I’ve ever sat on buy Champion Jockey Richard Hughes and the best I’ve ever trained by classic winning trainer Richard Hannon.
Describes as a monster and in a different league to Hannon’s very talented Paco Boy by Hughsie, few could argue with him that he was an awesome horse, a brilliant miler as he racked up the wins.
Held up in his work he only managed 3rd in the 2000 guineas but once the cobwebs were out he won 5 consecutive Group 1’s including the Irish 2000 Guineas, The St James Palace Stakes, The Sussex Stakes The Locking and the Queen Anne Stakes
Then along comes this young whippersnapper Frankel who without as much as breaking sweat makes this brilliant miler look like a one paced handicapper.
Excuses were made and Canford Cliffs retired but rumour has it they thought continuing was senseless as despite his undoubted talent he could never beat Frankel.
Frankel went on to prove that no matter what excuses had been made, he was every bit as good as that defeat of Canford Cliffs made him look.
Frankel in his entire career had only one questionable performance to his name but after his defeat of Canford Cliffs he put together one stunning performance after another.
Timeform decided his overall form was deserving in a massive hike in rating which is not hard to understand. It wasn’t any one performances it was the combination of one mind blowing performance after the other.
I may not agree with his ousting of Sea-Bird but there’s no doubt in my mind he’s the first horse since Sea-Bird won the Arc that they could have justified doing it with.
Frankel was so good no one not me, not anyone will ever convince his loyal fans he’s not the greatest of all time so why bother?
He succeeded where others like Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Nijinsky etc. They had their chances they simply weren’t good enough or never put enough sparkling performance together like he did.
Great post Fisty!
Yes they love to use the old "oh he only beat up one horse time and time again" line. You would think after what Excelebration did on Saturday they would give up on that one as well!
But they conveniently forget he also beat 5 time Group 1 winner Canford Cliffs, 5 time G1 winner Dream Ahead (twice), 4 time G1 winner Twice Over, 3 time G1 winner SNA, 3 time G1 winner and second best horse in the world CDA, King George and Eclipse winner Nathaniel (twice), Irish Derby winner Treasure Beech, German Derby winner Pastorius not to mention other multiple Group 1 winners.
His form is unshakeable guys.
EGS mentions two examples of horses who won one or two races in wonderful style. No argument there – they were incredible performances from incredible horses. But, as HGM says, how many of those performances did Frankel put up? Royal Lodge, 2,000 Guineas, Sussex Stakes, Lockinge, Queen Anne, Juddmonte – all spectacular, all breathtaking.
Try and tell me that those performances don’t have him eating at the very top table!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
don’t get me wrong, there are a few things that are unarguable. One, that he’s the best horse around at the moment. two, that he put up some sensational performances. three, that he’s one of the best milers we’ll ever see.
but the big question, is he the best horse that ever lived. I would argue that he just isn’t.
take some of the evidence given in his favour. one of the things that is generally supposed to be exceptional about frankel, is his ability to sustain a relentless gallop.
but then if you want evidence of relentlessness, dancing braves victory at goodwood before the arc, was a good example of that. he also broke the track record in that race. (of course, naive of me to think that breaking track records matters.
)another piece of evidence is his sensational sectionals. Well for one thing I doubt he’s ever done a furlong faster than the brave’s penultimate furlong in his unlucky defeat in the 1986 derby http://youtu.be/m4ya2HPJpyI
as for track records, most if not all of the other horses in the list to be considered "the greatest" broke track records.
Sea bird II broke four track records. dancing brave, brigadier gerard, ribot, secretariat all set track records.
although maybe i’m lacking understanding and common sense to ask naive questions like "why didn’t he break track records"
as for track records, most if not all of the other horses in the list to be considered "the greatest" broke track records.
Sea bird II broke four track records. dancing brave, brigadier gerard, ribot, secretariat all set track records.
although maybe i’m lacking understanding and common sense to ask naive questions like "why didn’t he break track records"
Had the ground been on the good/good to firm side at Ascot on Saturday, not only would Frankel have won by a much wider margin, his chief rival, Cirrus Des Aigles probably wouldn’t have run, due to the fact that he needs the mud in order to show his best form. Taken out of his comfort zone, Frankel – who prefers faster conditions, beat the mud lover hands down.
Breaking track records is certainly no indication of greatness. Some very nondescript animals have broken various track records all over the world, so that argument holds no water.
As a huge fan of the extraordinary Sea-Bird, I would love to know which track records he broke ?
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Guys I think I should have said lesser races rather than minor races when I was talking about BrGerard…….Mill Reef went on to win
the Derby
the King George and
The Arc
where the opposition is somewhat tuffer most years. No disrespect meant to BG at all…..sorry!!!
Sorry but did you even read the list of mile races Brigadier Gerard won, they include the same ones Frankel won so I guess he also won lesser races. The Brigadier won 10 races that were classified as G1 in his racing days from 6 to 12f and 2 G2s which are now classified as G1s, the Lockinge and the Prince of Wales.
That old saying when you’re in a hole stop digging comes to mind.
To have the speed to win the Guineas and the physique to handle Epsom and win the Derby.Even Frankel did not dare face that challenge.Yes he was the best short runner in the world But no matter what we say it is all about the little lollypop on the stick at Epsom.Nothing like visiting the Queen after the winning enclosure at Epsom.The racing world is watching that one.Every stud farm has one dream.Not just Coolmore.
Is the best tennis player there has ever been, one that wins Wimbledon 10 times but never wins another Grand Slam?
I
DO
put credibility on being able to travel, compete on different surfaces and beat the best other countries have to offer in their race conditions. It’s very conceited to think the horses Frankel has beaten makes him the greatest horse ever. Not so much rose-tinted as Looney tunes.
You are making an unrealistic comparison between horse racing and tennis. The tennis grand slam has always been Wimbledon, US Open, French Open and Australian Open. By that very fact travel is essential. In horse racing the colts grand slam is the 2000 Guineas, Derby and St Leger, meaning they HAVE to be in this country for those three races. Horses who chase glory outside of this country are almost always doing so because they are not up to the standard required in the English Classics. Non-stayers may give the Irish 2000 (or The French Derby)a go instead of Epsom but in what way does that make them a better horse, just because they raced overseas?
Horses are not like humans and you can’t compare playing tennis on clay and grass to a horse trying to run on both firm and heavy ground. We all saw what winning the Irish Derby in a mudbath did for Camelot’s career and any Looney Tunes would be the notion of raxing a horse in order to prove a point in some bizzare urinating up a stable wall competition. Horses will always have preferences on going, racecourse, distance etc and a trainer has a responsibility to the animal and what is best for him/her and a campaign is plotted out accordingly.
Track records mean absolutely nothing. Dandy Boy ran a faster time in a handicap, than Black Caviar did over the same distance on the same card, in a Group 1 at Royal Ascot. Therefore he is the better horse then?
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.