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I am loathe to reply because I really think this is going nowhere but I have to correct something. This thread is about what to do about terrorism, not about whether terrorism is good or bad. Obviously killing innocent people is morally repugnant and reprehensible in every way. I would have thought that goes without saying.
Talk about double standards. Did anyone say that it was OK for the US to fund terrorism anywhere? How does that justify Iran funding Hezbollah?
It does not matter if you perceive yourself as a freedom fighter or with just cause. If you randomly target innocent civilians through mass executions, random bombings, suicide bombings and indiscriminate rocket attacks then you are a terrorist in my book. I do not understand how any sane being will consider that unreasonable
At no stage have I suggested sympathy for Hezbollah or Iran, support for anything they were doing or justification for attacking civilians. This is why these debates become so tiresome and circular.
I merely stated that there are different terrorist groups with different aims who draw their support from different communities.
Yes of course these groups are hijacking causes, that is exactly what they are doing and they are doing it very well. My points are purely practical. You can deal with groups like Al Quaeda and the Red Brigade militarily because they have no local support. Hamas and Hezbollah have succeeded in hijacking legitimate causes to the extent that ordinary locals support them and are prepared to volunteer to fight for them. Now I merely stated what governments all around the world have discovered, that when a terrorist group has ingratiated itself successfully with a community, you have to have a two-pronged attack. Of course you go after the terrorists. But at the same time, you address the needs of the community that is mistakenly supporting them. Nothing to do with appeasing terrorists or anything of the sort. Just logic.
I agree with Insomniac’s assessment of the Iraq war, eminently reasonable stuff, and well put.
On the issue of defining what is a terrorist and what is a freedom fighter, I think we may be slightly missing the point. The issue is not whether we in front of our PCs in comfortable England think that Hezbollah are freedom fighters or terrorists. None of us are likely to be flying out there and volunteering to fight the Israelis. The issue, from a purely practical political view, is whether ordinary Lebanese see them as freedom fighters. And I would say that a fair proportion of them do. And that is the problem. Why do normal young (and old) people see a bunch of Iranian-funded extremists as freedom-fighters and why are they willing to join them? And the next question that arises is how do we turn this around.
My suggestion is that you both target the terrorists but also address the legitimate aspirations of the community that is apparently supporting them. This is a completely different thing from addressing the demands of terrorists. For example, Hamas wants to destroy the state of Israel. I suspect that the ordinary Palestinian just wants a safe and sovereign country in which they can get on with their lives in peace. You address the needs of the latter, not the wild aims of the former, and thereby drain the support from these terrorist organisations, so that in the end all you are left with is a bunch of fanatics who are faced with the choice between abandoning violence or heading for oblivion.
That is not to imply that it is easy, of course, it is fiendishly difficult and is likely to involve a great deal of short-term pain and suffering. But then pain and suffering is pretty much what is happening now anyway.
This means that the USA and GB were wrong to invade Iraq on the grounds that it was fighting terrorism.
They clearly did not exhaust all possibilities to control the situation from the outside.<br>Blair followed doggie-style like a fool.
The entire operation lasted 15 days.<br>Should have lasted 7 but just because I ‘m not an American army general I ‘m going to give the benefit of the doubt and agree with 15 days.<br>The big and obvious question was, how following an invasion you go about governing a muslim-Arab-fundamentalist state with ethnic-religious divisions as many as there are square miles in that country ???<br>The chances of failure were 100%, but no one paid any attention.<br>American cons were shouting "traitors" left-right and centre and they were also saying "if you were close by we ‘d shoot you".<br>I had enough of fools.<br>May be I am a fool myself, but the magnitude of one’s foolishness also plays a role in this game.<br>Those Yankee neocons top the bill and they have broken every kind of world record and it is pitiful they are dictating to the rest of us how the fight against terror should be organized and carried out.
There were 23 arrests made over the exploding juice plot, one has been released without charge and the police have asked for extra time to question the others. Obviously they are struggling to prove anything.
Looking on the bright side, I suppose they didnt murder or shot anyone this time.
On that point, Dave, surely when the Home Secretary announces on national television that the police have foiled a plot rather than possibly foiled an alleged plot, isn’t he prejudicing any future trial? I have absolutely no legal expertise whatsoever, but it did strike me as odd. I do notice that all news programmes have now taken to referring to an ‘alleged plot’.
isn’t he prejudicing any future trial?
Apparently so. He got a lot of criticism for this.
Personally, I thought the whole thing was to distract from the govt
(a) allowing passage of arms to israel and blocking a ceasefire
while, simultaneously
(b) pretending to be "working towards a lasting ceasefire".
that whole bumsteer was getting less credible by the day and people were starting to ask questions …
Steve
"(b) pretending to be "working towards a lasting ceasefire"."
Mabey thats what the Manc’s on flight Monarch zb613 where trying to achieve.
Mabey thats what the Manc’s on flight Monarch zb613 where trying to achieve.
Or maybe they were just a bunch of small minded, ignorant racist arseholes.
Who knows?
For some reason, the whole thing reminded me of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_hanger
Steve
Eleven of the 22 people arrested have now been charged with terror offences, one of them had a book and the other ten knew he had it or something.
I dont think these people can get a fair trial now Aranalde, I think the government are expecting us to demand justice and insist that they don’t get one.
They were Tanvir Hussain, 25, from Leyton, east London; Umar Islam, 28, who gave his address in court as Stratford, east London; Arafat Waheed Khan, 25, from Walthamstow, east London; Ahmed Abdullah Ali, 25, from Walthamstow; Ibrahim Savant, 25, who gave his address as London N16; and Waheed Zaman, 22, from Walthamstow.
.. the English .. at it again :biggrin:
.. the English .. at it again
Well now Dave, I think you’re doing your fellow countrymen a disservice. I think its only fair that the esteemed Dr Reid is given his share of the credit on behalf of the entire Scottish nation :biggrin:
Thank goodness for Dr Reid. Here is a man who is prepared to hold as many press conferences as it takes to make this nation a safer place to live in.
Dr. Reid is a Rugby type Jock .. more of a borders cardigan, like Corm. I dont think he’ll last long as a bumbling waffler, his head goes pink when he’s lying, you watch !!
.. another two released ..
Charged = 11<br>Released = 3<br>Still in custody = 9<br>Convicted = 0<br>
Just one correction DJ.
Their British.
Thats right, isn’t it Aranalde?
One thing gets me with this whole thing.
Why do these British citizens want to mass murder their fellow British citizens?
I mean, were all the same!
That reminds me of a joke:
A wifey walks into a scottish butchers on a bitterly cold day. The proprietor, obviously chilled to the bone is standing foursquare over a three bar electric fire. The wifey points towards the counter and says:
"Is that your Ayrshire Bacon?"
"No," replies the butcher "I’m just keeping ma haunds warm!"
I was quite impressed with what this Chap said on the news tonight .. <br>about the War on Terror, Terrorists and Britishness .. !
I pretty much, well no, whole-heartedly agree with everything that he has said about the sorry state of affairs that our government has got itself into over this whole mess, that they have created.
What worries me, is why is he having to say it and where are the so-called opposition MP’s?
Its a bit much, when a man who came from Africa and claimed asylum years ago, is the only person in the Establishment who is actually talking any sense and saying that things are becoming definitely un-British.
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