ST James Palace Stakes

Home Forums Archive Topics Royal Ascot 2014 ST James Palace Stakes

This topic contains 42 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by Ghost of Rob V Ghost of Rob V 5 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 13 posts - 31 through 43 (of 43 total)
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  • #482729

    andyod
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    Both the jockey change and the change of tactics with NOT failed to produce a result like the Guineas.Too bad.I wonder why the changes?

    #482741
    steeplechasing
    steeplechasing
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    Kingman looks like he’s still learning about racing, and Doyle looks like he’s still learning about Kingman.

    Once it clicks with both, you’ll see something really special, imo

    Never argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience, then onlookers might not be able to tell the difference. https://lazybet.com/

    #482762

    andyod
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    Where does that leave Australia?Considering his race in the Guineas (for a Derby horse) I would think he would beat Kingman any day.Incidentally without Fallon would NOT have beating Kingman and Australia? I don’t think so.The shocking lack of first class jockeys was highlighted by Frankie’s beautiful ride in the Coventry.Switch the jockeys and the first two would have reversed places.

    #482786
    Ghost of Rob V
    Ghost of Rob V
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    Stunning win from Kingman … such a ferocious turn of foot!

    I backed both horses in the end but I think it is safe to say that Night Of Thunder won’t beat Kingman again. I don’t think even Toronado would beat Kingman.

    #482826
    Nathan Hughes
    Nathan Hughes
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    Stunning win from Kingman … such a ferocious turn of foot!

    I backed both horses in the end but I think it is safe to say that Night Of Thunder won’t beat Kingman again. I don’t think even Toronado would beat Kingman.

    Toronado goes better fresh and while the Sussex is still a way off if he were mine I’d be incline to skip Goodwood and take in the International. The horse settled lovely yesterday but with the weight for age to take into consideration 3 year olds have a better record in the Sussex especially in recent years, Kingman would be a tough nut to crack but it would be a race to relish.

    Yep, International then Champion Stakes, Arc and breeders cup classic. That would eclipse Frankel. :lol:

    Don't Eat The Pie and Don't Buy The S*n
    #482833
    JJMSports
    JJMSports
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    • Total Posts 2019

    Please keep him in training at four. #Monster

    #482853
    Gingertipster
    Gingertipster
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    The way Hughes chose to ride the race gave no chance for a second kick today. I suppose they might have pulled it off from the front but coming late did the trick last time and it smacked of a lack of confidence having to change the tactics today.

    Not "lack of confidence" imo Steve, just sensible race planning/riding. Night Of Thunder won from the back in a

    truly run

    Guineas,

    staying on to win going away

    . As I said earlier, the St James’s Palace had two rivals who usually raced prominently, but neither would’ve been suited by making it a strongly run race. Therefore, had Hughes held the horse up in a

    slowly run

    race he’d have got

    even more outpaced

    in a finish than he did. Hughes did the right thing by getting the best position in a slowly run affair and trying to pinch the race.

    After today Night Of Thunder’s Guineas win from Kingman looks like a flash in the pan. For whatever reason, he managed to kick past Kingman late and that was reasoned by some to be because Kingman was played a little early and Night Of Thunder was played last.

    There was no chance of that happening today with the way Night Of Thunder was ridden.

    You can call it good planning and sensible if you wish but from the moment the Hannon horse went to the front I knew he was a sitting duck for Kingman to pick up.

    It may have been a plan but after that I don’t think even Baldrick would have called it a cunning one.

    Toormore looks like sprinting might be his last hope of salvaging something and War Command, well, I won’t mention the Coventry for fear of offending some :wink:

    Steve,
    May be Night Of Thunder would’ve had a better chance by making an even pace, but we only know this in hind-sight. Yes, it is detremental to Night Of Thunder’s chance by having a slow pace (being a supposed stayer at the trip) – but leading in a slowly run race when the pace quickened was to his advantage. In contrast, Kingman was at a disadvantage of a compromising position, out the back in a slowly run race; yet favoured by having plenty of speed. Even horses with a fine turn of foot usually struggle to make up so much ground off slow fractions. Had Doyle had his horse on the inner and needed to wait for room it could’ve been different. As it is, when initially asked off the turn Kingman did not pick up straight away.

    It was only Kingman’s extraordinary ability that allowed him to win so easily yesterday.

    It is strange that you criticise Hughes for not making a stronger pace, yet also say "from the moment the Hannon horse went to the front I knew he was a sitting duck for Kingman". So you think Night Of Thunder would’ve had a better chance by being held up in a slowly run race against a rival with superior speed. :?

    Joseph O’Brien is the jockey who should be castigated. Giving Kingman lengths with a horse who’s put up his best performances in truly run races. Of course it didn’t (in the end) make the difference between winning and losing; but cost War Command a place in a Group 1. Without such a foolish ride would’ve run right up to the Coventry/Dewhurst form.

    Can understand them not wanting to make it a test on Toormore, but the change of tactics (tracking pace) backfired. Not settling and having nothing left.

    value is everything
    #482924

    Lingfield
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    Both the jockey change and the change of tactics with NOT failed to produce a result like the Guineas.Too bad.I wonder why the changes?

    Cos Hughes is Hannon’s number one rider and they reckoned that the tactics used were the only way they might have beaten the winner. Reportedly they do not envisage another match up.

    #482996

    andyod
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    Lingfield you say and I quote "the only way they might have beaten the winner" Why they have already beaten the winner in the Guineas using Fallon; have you forgotten? As for the ferocious turn of foot mentioned by another I wonder how it would compare with the Derby turn of foot displayed by Australia when running down Kingston Hill? Just wondering.Incidentally I thought that last year’s Irish Two Thousand Guineas was more easily won than this year without half the fuss from the press.

    #483059

    Lingfield
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    Lingfield you say and I quote "the only way they might have beaten the winner" Why they have already beaten the winner in the Guineas using Fallon; have you forgotten? As for the ferocious turn of foot mentioned by another I wonder how it would compare with the Derby turn of foot displayed by Australia when running down Kingston Hill? Just wondering.Incidentally I thought that last year’s Irish Two Thousand Guineas was more easily won than this year without half the fuss from the press.

    The Hannons have so much talent amongst the milers and various formlines that they should know where they are both within the stable and against the opposition. I think they are realistic enough to realise that the way the groups panned out in the English Guineas meant that NOT got the race to suit and Kingman didn’t. Remember that Kingman previously slaughtered NOT by four and a half lengths in the Greenham when NOT was ridden by Moore. Certainly Hannon is in no rush to take on Kingman over a mile again in the short term at least. This is what he said on his website:-

    Reflecting on Night of Thunder’s defeat, Hannon said:"No complaints – we were beaten fair and square. They are two good horses, but Kingman has a better turn of foot than us, though I was encouraged how well our fellow finished his race. Hughesie and I agree that it would be worth trying him at a mile and a quarter, so we might have a look at the Eclipse Stakes at Sandown."

    As regards jockeys you appear to be a Fallon fan. He has no association with the Hannon yard and the winning Guineas ride was just a lucky spare. Hughes is first choice and they use Moore (was apprenticed there) next in big races if available. Moore was committed elsewhere for the Guineas. For the Guineas Hughes felt he could hardly get off Toormore which was rated champ juvenile. After another defeat at Royal Ascot (under Moore) Toormore now has a lot to prove. The only way I can see Fallon getting back on NOT is if Hughes and possibly Moore aren’t available.
    All isn’t lost for NOT. He had his day in the sun in the Guineas and is a classic winner. He ran perfectly well at Royal Ascot and was just beaten by a better miler in Kingman as the betting market indicated.

    #483062
    Nathan Hughes
    Nathan Hughes
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    I’d like to see Sean Leavy pick up more spare rides for Hannon’s big race runners. Underrated jockey imo.

    NOT will be fine over 10f. Van Der Neer who was same ownership ran ok over the distance and I’d say NOT is a better prospect. his Dam sire is Galileo and I don’t see the step up being a negative.

    Don't Eat The Pie and Don't Buy The S*n
    #483183

    andyod
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    I have always admired Sean since he was an apprentice at Ballydoyle.Incidentally6 Aidan was very kind to him during his father’s illness.

    #483369
    Ghost of Rob V
    Ghost of Rob V
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    As for the ferocious turn of foot mentioned by another I wonder how it would compare with the Derby turn of foot displayed by Australia when running down Kingston Hill?

    Kingman’s last 2 furlongs in the St James Palace was 22.35 seconds. Sole Power’s last 2 furlongs (King’s Stand) was ran in 22.7 seconds.

    Kingman’s last 3 furlongs (SJP) was 34.2 while Australia’s last 3.47 furlongs in the Derby was 39.65 (Kingston Hill ran his in 40.2).

    No doubt in my mind that Kingman is a total livewire when it comes to finishing speed.

    But then, when you compare the above finishing sectionals to some of the sublime ones that Frankel produced, Sir Henry’s superstar would’ve burned the legs off Kingman & Co.

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