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I think it’s a silly concept to suggest that a horse lose his unbeaten record over fences just to pander to the masses.
First of all, there’s not the slightest suggestion that he would lose his unbeaten record at the moment!
It’s not a silly concept to try out a chaser at the premium distance for chasers. Just to try, that’s all.
Mike
Forgive me if I baulk somewhat at the endless intangible qualities accorded to trainers – their ‘God-given abilities’, their quasi-laying-on-of-hands – as I tend to believe their success is more likely to be based on more corporeal attributes. Hard work and dedication sure, but most of all the acquisition of top-quality staff, especially stable-hands. A slice of good luck and wealthy owners (the first likely to attract the latter) is no hindrance either.
Mike
Nobody was talking about the "quasi-laying-on-of-hands" Mike and instinct is hardly an intangible quality. When I say "God given" I am saying that for me there talent seems to be natural. Cecil would be the first to tell you he is not the most intelligent person but he clearly has a gift with horses and an intuitive feel for what is right. Is that success over 40 years just down to luck, staff, hard work and rich owners? Many other trainers have those.
Of course all the qualities you mention are essential and having a good team is a must. If they did not have rich owners they would not be top trainers. But if they were not top trainers they would not have rich owners! They all started with 0 winners.
I think though you always tend to find that the greatest sportsmen work as hard if not harder than those even less talented. What was it Gary Player said about practicising and luck?
I can certainly see big differences in the way some trainers ply their craft and not all of it is down to just hard work or luck. How often do you hear the likes of Cecil, Stoute or Henderson saying "the horse will tell us when he is ready." We all know Jim Bolger for example has a different approach and tends to run his in races.
How is it that Cecil has had such consistent and exceptional success with fillies? Dedication? Luck? Rich owners? Probably all of those plus a large chunk of instinct, experience, patience and a million other things that you or I probably have no clue about.
How is it that Stoute has been able to excel year after year after year with older horses? Decication? Luck? Rich owners? Probably all of those plus…… well you know where I am going.
All good trainers have rich owners, dedication, hard work and top quality staff. The great ones have that plus a little bit of something else.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
There can hardly be any doubt that Aidan O’Brien has plenty of that little something else given his outstanding record.
And who on earth could suggest that Nicholls doesn’t possess it either.
It is results that will tell you a trainer’s worth. O’Brien will hopefully eclipse all records in time, he’s well on his way already. And Nicholls stacks up very favourably with Henderson in the longer term.
I think it’s a silly concept to suggest that a horse lose his unbeaten record over fences just to pander to the masses.
First of all, there’s not the slightest suggestion that he would lose his unbeaten record at the moment!
It’s not a silly concept to try out a chaser at the premium distance for chasers. Just to try, that’s all.
Mike
He’s 8/1 for The Gold Cup at the moment, even allowing for the fact that he would be a lot shorter W.A.R that still leaves a margin of doubt about him staying unbeaten. History shows that it is rare for 2 mile champions to triumph in The Gold Cup. What if he WERE to take his chance and fail to stay, it would simply prove what history already strongly suggested would happen and we would all also be aware that whoever won the Queen Mother that year was a false champion, with the true champ titting around in the effort to prove he was better than Arkle. I’d prefer to watch him over 2 miles, allowed to attack the fences in the spectacular manner we know he can, rather than be creeping around quietly to try to preserve stamina and answer the question as to who would win if Spiderman were to fight the Hulk in a good old fashioned "square go"
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
There can hardly be any doubt that Aidan O’Brien has plenty of that little something else
For sure……..he has a lot of people behind him who have wallets that look like the Argos catalogue.
Not saying that’s all there is to it, but it certainly helps compared to looking for yearlings down the back of an old sofa.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
What if he WERE to take his chance and fail to stay
I think we must look at life differently! What if he
did
stay, eh?
Anyway, I was merely imploring the owners to try him at three miles
somewhere
to see if such longer races are within his compass. It’s bound to happen at some point so we’ll see…
Mike
This is an audio link to an interview with Brough Scott today.
http://media.teamtalk.com/replays/Broug … 096091.mp3
He is talking about his forthcoming biography on Sir Henry. Very interesting in the context of this thread and our discussions on the good verses the great. Perhaps explains much better than I could how with some trainers it is more than just the tangibles that make them great.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I have backed him at 9/2 to win the King George. Bob’s Worth won’t be in it, Cue Card has even more doubt about his staying 3 miles than Sprinter Sacre does, as he has had a go already, albeit in heavy ground and the rest aren’t even close.
They will need to prove that he is better than Arkle and therefore the greatest of all time. To do this he must win the Queen Mother on the Wednesday and the Gold Cup on the Friday, this will end all speculation and argument. Or will it? Maybe he’ll have to win the National as well.
Geraghty has said if he went 3 miles now he would rip his arms off more or less and said when he settles more as he gets older them 3m is then an option, but he is just too explosive at 2m and will stay there for the time being.
Geraghty has said if he went 3 miles now he would rip his arms off more or less and said when he settles more as he gets older them 3m is then an option, but he is just too explosive at 2m and will stay there for the time being.
Didn’t he cope fairly comfortably (in armchair, smoking cigar) with the step up to 2.5m just a few days ago?
I’d give Geraghty’s opinion zero credence – i very much doubt (ie no chance) he’d jump off if SS goes for the KG.
Geraghty has said if he went 3 miles now he would rip his arms off more or less and said when he settles more as he gets older them 3m is then an option, but he is just too explosive at 2m and will stay there for the time being.
Didn’t he cope fairly comfortably (in armchair, smoking cigar) with the step up to 2.5m just a few days ago?
I’d give Geraghty’s opinion zero credence – i very much doubt (ie no chance) he’d jump off if SS goes for the KG.
I have not noticed anyone catching out Barry Greragty as an habitual liar before, so why would he start now? Or perhaps you believe that he is so untutored in the way of the horse in general, and this horse in particular, that his opinion is due no regard at all. Or perhaps you had a better feel of the horse’s style of running from your view on the rails (or the sofa in front of the TV), than did BG from the horse’s back.
I have not noticed anyone catching out Barry Greragty as an habitual liar before, so why would he start now? Or perhaps you believe that he is so untutored in the way of the horse in general, and this horse in particular, that his opinion is due no regard at all. Or perhaps you had a better feel of the horse’s style of running from your view on the rails (or the sofa in front of the TV), than did BG from the horse’s back.
So the jockey was being completely honest after the Tingle Creek, was he? Nonsense: he knew full well that Sprinter Sacre could beat Moscow Flyer on the bit; he was just trying to be political.
It would be interesting if SS were to go for the Gold Cup. There is no doubt Barry would ride him in the King George, but would he get off Bob’s Worth to ride SS in a Gold Cup? Given he bred Bob’s Worth, it would be a difficult decision. I think he would side with SS, simply for the fact that he is the best and Barry would be part of racing history, should he go on and win it.
I’m sure there would be a lot of punters lumping on at dream odds, were he to be entered. All the talk from Nicky and Barry though is against this happening, although Caroline Mould hasn’t ruled it out.
Geraghty has said if he went 3 miles now he would rip his arms off more or less and said when he settles more as he gets older them 3m is then an option, but he is just too explosive at 2m and will stay there for the time being.
Didn’t he cope fairly comfortably (in armchair, smoking cigar) with the step up to 2.5m just a few days ago?
I’d give Geraghty’s opinion zero credence – i very much doubt (ie no chance) he’d jump off if SS goes for the KG.
I have not noticed anyone catching out Barry Greragty as an habitual liar before, so why would he start now? Or perhaps you believe that he is so untutored in the way of the horse in general, and this horse in particular, that his opinion is due no regard at all. Or perhaps you had a better feel of the horse’s style of running from your view on the rails (or the sofa in front of the TV), than did BG from the horse’s back.
Ah – this old chesnut. No, I’ve never ridden a winner under rules. I don’t particularly think this means I cannot have an opinion on Racing topics. I may be going out on a limb here, but I reckon this board would be an awful lot quieter if restricted to professional jockeys.
Didn’t Geraghty state SS was a "pure 2 miler" not too many months before he absolutely hacked up in the Melling?
Ah – this old chesnut. No, I’ve never ridden a winner under rules. I don’t particularly think this means I cannot have an opinion on Racing topics. I may be going out on a limb here, but I reckon this board would be an awful lot quieter if restricted to professional jockeys.
Didn’t Geraghty state SS was a "pure 2 miler" not too many months before he absolutely hacked up in the Melling?
Ah, this old chestnut, answering a different question to the one posed, and rebutting a point not made by the poster you quoted. Nowhere did I even hint that you should not have an opinion and/or post that opinion on this forum. You said: “I’d give Geraghty’s opinion zero credence.” I was being sarcastic by questioning why you would take no notice of what Geraghty said about Sprinter Sacre despite him riding the horse in races and gallops, and implying that your opinion was better than his.
So, was Geraghty lying, or are you a better judge than he about Sprinter Sacre?
Ah – this old chesnut. No, I’ve never ridden a winner under rules. I don’t particularly think this means I cannot have an opinion on Racing topics. I may be going out on a limb here, but I reckon this board would be an awful lot quieter if restricted to professional jockeys.
Didn’t Geraghty state SS was a "pure 2 miler" not too many months before he absolutely hacked up in the Melling?
Ah, this old chestnut, answering a different question to the one posed, and rebutting a point not made by the poster you quoted. Nowhere did I even hint that you should not have an opinion and/or post that opinion on this forum. You said: “I’d give Geraghty’s opinion zero credence.” I was being sarcastic by questioning why you would take no notice of what Geraghty said about Sprinter Sacre despite him riding the horse in races and gallops, and implying that your opinion was better than his.
So, was Geraghty lying, or are you a better judge than he about Sprinter Sacre?
Saying you give someone’s opinion no credence is not the same as calling them a liar. Jockeys say any old tripe, I’m not singling Geraghty out or calling him a liar whatsoever. If SS wins the KG by 20l, BG will probably say that he’s always been crying out for a trip.
Would you call Aiden ("this fella is the fastest we have had") O’Brien is a "serial liar"? I also give his opinion no credence, yet he clearly knows much more about his horses than I do.
Barry Geraghty is no liar. He also doesn’t know Sprinter Sacre’s true limits. Only Sprinter Sacre knows, and he ain’t telling. Seeing as he’s won at 2 miles and 2 1/2 miles in hand, there’s only one way to find out if he can handle 3 miles – put him in a 3 mile race.
Secretariat had perceived distance limitations too, he was built like a sprinter and his sire was considered a sire of sprinters(even though Bold Ruler’s full brother Independence was a champion steeplechaser!) There were also concerns that he would burn himself out at 12 furlongs since he ran so fast early on. Imagine if Laurin didn’t run him in the Belmont because of that!
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