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Sorry guys, had a few beverages taken last night. A few too many !
Sorted now, thanks.
Frightening thought, that Madman Marz can interfere with my computer?
Are we all agreed that we must wait for 3 year olds to win decisively in all aged Group 1 company before showering them with such superlatives?
Depends how we define decisively. Shergar, for example, won the King George & Queen Elizabeth Stakes by four lengths; Generous by seven lengths – whereas Nijinsky (a better colt than either, imo) won the same race by a shorter margin, without coming off the bridle, and yet arguably just as , if not, more decisively.
Lammtarra on the other hand, won the King George & Arc by having to battle hard and by a small margins and remained undefeated, albeit in a handful of races during his short career. Was he not a great horse and deserving of superlatives?
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How would you price up a rematch between Authorized, Notnowcato and George Washington at 10f on ground just on the soft side of good (i.e. similar to yesterday) and on a course where no track bias was likely?
Interesting one
I would go around Authorized 6/4, Notnowcato 2/1, George 9/4 (is he starting to really "dog it" now?) ~ although I am sure that if they did meet under such circumstances, the market would make Authorized and GW shorter – oh how we love "unlucky" losers…..
I think to a large degree you have to see three year olds beating older horses before calling them true greats. El Gran Senor (mentioned earlier) was probably an exception that proves the rule as its difficult to argue with his quality you only have to look at what he beat in the Guineas.
When you stop and think about it in depth you realise just how good the likes of Nijinsky, Mill Reef and Dancing Brave were. For example take Dancing Brave. He destroyed good horses in the Guineas and his mile form was probably the best in Europe. Over ten furlongs you will probably not find a horse in history that would’ve beaten him at his peak and he stayed twelve furlongs (his class probably enabled him to stay as much as anything else). So effectively he was the best horse around from 8 furlongs to 12 furlongs. Infact seeing the speed he showed to win the Guineas he would very probably have won the July Cup as well. Unbelievable horse, much the same as Nijinsky and the same would possibly have applied to Mill Reef had he not had the misfortune to come up against possibly the best miler of all time in the Guineas (Brigadier Gerard). Nashwan is another who fits into a similar category but I personally think (rightly or wrongly) he was lucky enough to be around in an abysmal year.
I will always argue that a horse such as Dancing Brave, Nijinsky, Mill Reef who were top drawer over a mile then made the step up in trip are better horses than the likes of Shergar, Reference Point, Generous, Ribot, even Sea Bird that wouldn’t have had the speed to win a mile Group one as a three year old.
I will always argue that a horse such as Dancing Brave, Nijinsky, Mill Reef who were top drawer over a mile then made the step up in trip are better horses than the likes of Shergar, Reference Point, Generous, Ribot, even Sea Bird that wouldn’t have had the speed to win a mile Group one as a three year old.
Though, it is only fair to point out that Mill Reef didn’t have the speed to win the only mile group 1 race he contested as a three year old, but was nevertheless an outstanding middle distance performer (undefeated over 10 and 12 furlongs).
You could reasonably argue that because Nijinsky and Dancing Brave won top class group one races over a mile – as well as a few mile and a hallf group 1 races between them – that they were more versatile performers – but it is more than a little bold to suggest that both those great colts (along with Mill Reef) were superior or better animals than outstanding champions like Ribot and Sea Bird ( who like Mill Reef and Shergar after them ) remained undefeated at 10 and 12 furlongs – unlike Nijinsky (10 & 12 f) and Dancing Brave (12f x 2), who were both defeated at those distances.
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I will always argue that a horse such as Dancing Brave, Nijinsky, Mill Reef who were top drawer over a mile then made the step up in trip are better horses than the likes of Shergar, Reference Point, Generous, Ribot, even Sea Bird that wouldn’t have had the speed to win a mile Group one as a three year old.
Though, it is only fair to point out that Mill Reef didn’t have the speed to win the only mile group 1 race he contested as a three year old, but was nevertheless an outstanding middle distance performer (undefeated over 10 and 12 furlongs).
You could reasonably argue that because Nijinsky and Dancing Brave won top class group one races over a mile – as well as a few mile and a hallf group 1 races between them – that they were more versatile performers – but it is more than a little bold to suggest that both those great colts (along with Mill Reef) were superior or better animals than outstanding champions like Ribot and Sea Bird ( who like Mill Reef and Shergar after them ) remained undefeated at 10 and 12 furlongs – unlike Nijinsky (10 & 12 f) and Dancing Brave (12f x 2), who were both defeated at those distances.
Its all about opinions granted I’m just stating mine. Dancing Brave got beat twice once in the Derby due to an atrocious ride and once in the Breeders Cup when travelling to the US was new to Brits, he was tired / jet lagged.
Nijinsky was beaten towards the end of his career according to some people he wasn’t well following a virus. Ok no evidence to prove that.
The likes of Shergar, Ribot, Sea Bird were champions I’m not denying that.
Nijinsky was beaten towards the end of his career according to some people he wasn’t well following a virus. Ok no evidence to prove that.
He had ringworm in the run up to the Leger.
I would agree that any three year old has to prove his worth against his elders before he can justifiably be tagged a ‘great’.
Of course even beating the Brigadier himself wasn’t enough for poor old Roberto for some people!
Of course even beating the Brigadier himself wasn’t enough for poor old Roberto for some people!
Roberto was a very good racehorse. People tend to forget that as well defeating the great Brigadier Gerard at York (both horses broke the track record that day) Vincent O’Brien’s colt also defeated subsequent Arc winner Rheingold twice, and he won the Coronation Cup as a four year old.
In saying that, I think that Panamanian jockey Baeza rode the race of his life that day, making all (he simply took Joe Mercer by surprise and took the sting out the great horse): allied to the fact that The Brigadier had a very hard race at Ascot when winning the King George & Queen Elizabeth.
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