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I was at a funeral this morning. Not a close relative or someone who I knew well, but very sad all the same. You seem to pick up on other people’s grief, even when it’s nothing to do with you. I think you call that empathy.
It made me wonder how people who have no religion cope with death, it must be really tough for them
Not at all – I find it quite easy.
Humans are just organisms and like any other organism – life begins and life ends – it’s a fact of life.
The organism is just a collection of atoms and molecules which will be eventually recycled either following incineration or disposal in the ground.
Why is a religion required to cope with death?
Of course the death of somebody you know or care about is painfully sad – but it is something that cannot be avoided and life still has to carry on afterwards.
Just remember the times shared with that person.
It is also worth remebering that things like funerals are for those left behind – presumably to make them feel better and they originated in a time when there was less self awareness and undestanding of the world and universe around them.
I believe the same applies to religion as well – it had a purpose in that it explained the unexplainable and the story of an "afterlife" came about because a) it gave those "left behind" something to cling onto and b) made teh living think there was a "purpose" to life. Rather than it being just the act of randomness it really is.
Some of the “best” and “happiest” funerals I have been the non-religious humanist ones – at those there is not the “obligation” to mourn but more to celebrate the life of the person who has died.
I would agree with most of Paul’s post. I am not religious in the slightest and of far more importance to me when someone dies are the actions and thoughts of people as individuals. My Mum passed away in September and it was comforting for want of a better word that people paid their respects by sending cards and turning up at the crematorium. My Mum had a faith so the ceremony was carried out by the clergy and it was a nice service but the prayers etc had little relevance to me I have to admit,to others it may have. Each to their own as they say, if people find solace in the arms of the church when someone dies then thats fine I just don’t happen to feel from a personal point of view its something I need. So to echo Paul I can’t see a problem for non believers, I certainly never had one and the most important thing is that you remember the good times spent with the departed and not be afraid to relay those times whenever you wish.
My late mother attended a had a couple of experiences with spiritualists which (and shes a natural sceptic) produced absolutely gob smacking results. Quite moving too. But extraordinary
People tend to run off with there hands over their ears when this subject is mentioned, but knowing the full story and what was revealed, left me completely convinced that something is going on on the other side.
Firefox, science exists because such questions remain unanswered – it is a fundamental of human nature to acquire knowledge.
If anything is "preposterous" it is the filling of that ‘knowledge vacuum’ with a deity, no?
Simply acknowledging "I don’t know" is a much more honest position….again, imo.
Edit: At this juncture, I’d like to extend peacable seasons greetings to marble, and apologise for my earlier churlishness.
Humans are just organisms and like any other organism – life begins and life ends – it’s a fact of life.
I think you ought to reword the above to include the words "in my world view". And remove the statement "its a fact..".
Why? It is a fact – ask your wife – the basic structures of a cell in the human body is the same as the basic cell structure of a single cell amoeba – the only difference being by an evolutionary process has caused the cells in "higher" beings to have more complex inter-relationships. (I too studied biology – or to be precise Human Biology – at uni)
I am religious and believe in hell and earth.
I am not a preacher but go along my simple path trying to live by the rules of my church and hopefully doing enough to stop me suffering eternal damnation.
I too respect your right to your views and who can say which one of us is right. Like all children of my generation I was "indoctrinated" with heaven and hell doctrine at school. However as I grew up I realised what I consider to the implausity of of what I had been taught. Even more so as I obtained a greater understanding of science.
I respect the views of agnostics and atheists alike, but do not agree with their "science". There are too many unanswered questions when it comes to quantum physics for us to categorically claim there is no "greater being" who has created everything we see before is.
I would never be so arrogant to even suggest there are not more intelligent beings in the universe – indeed I would say it is a statistical certainty. However just because there are questions that are currently unanswered it does not prove or disprove the existence of some deity.
My missus did a biology masters ay Oxford and was not raised to be religious. However she believes in a "divine being" purely because to date science is unable to answer the really important questions about how we came to be here in the first place.
But as I said in my original proposition, and in a way you seem to be confirming it, is using the existence of a deity not a handy solution for attempting to answer what has been unanswered?
If you consider how vast the Universe actually is it strikes me as completely preposterous for a human being to discount anything being out there in deep space.
As I said I wholly agree with you – however it does not have to be a deity.
Who can say which of us is right – if you are then I am in deep doo doo. Actually you are lucky in that you are in a win / win situation. If you are right then your belief will have saved you from damnation – if you are wrong you will be none the wiser when you die anyway.
Good valid stuff from all the above.
I’m virtually a full blown atheist (kaos theory etc) although I too believe that there must have been a little something added to the ingredients long before we got here….
Some time ago now, my sister saw a spiritualist and was blown away by what this woman revealed to her. She was fiercely sceptical to start with and was only coaxed into going by her very best friend who had recently lost her father. I could elaborate further on this but it’s a bit too revealing tbh. I’ve still not really managed to get my head round what was said and it’s been 8 years!
Note to self…Remember,.God doesn’t like those with creosote and splinters on their posterior….merely acknowledging a ‘higher being’ will neither save me or help me through those gates on this technicality.
Interesting thread.
I’m inclined to agree with Paul’s first post.
Is there a god? I’m certainly not clever enough to know the answer to that one.
Is there an "afterlife" or "soul"? Same answer again, I’m not clever enough to know.
I was brought up a catholic and went to strict catholic schools. We were always told that we were made in god’s likeness or image. It always struck me as odd that someone who could create life, the solar system and the universe etc. would need eyebrows or a bowel.
Wahtever the answers to god / creation/ afterlife, it’s more likely to be found in science than a holy book.
Happy Christmas one and all.I’m broadly with firefox and also Paul (if I read your second post correctly) that there could indeed by higher or supernatural type beings in the universe, that possibly created earth.
I don’t intend to speak for Paul but i don’t think he infered that the possible higher intelligence/being actually created the earth. My own view is that there was / is / will be higher beings than us out there. However their origins will not be supernatural or other worldy but from tiny and incremental changes over vast amounts of time.
My only question is, what makes people automatically think these beings will neccessarily be "good", or of "good" intentions?
Until proven otherwise, there is exactly the same probability that these entities are as bad as they are good. With all the problems and evil, greedy people in todays world there is no guarantee if someone did create this all that is was all set up to be fine and dandy.
You eloquently stumble upon the Epicurean paradox which when i was younger was one of the first things that made me think about my own beliefs.
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"
The philosophical answers to his question are either-
a) God does not exist or
b) God is either all powerful and evil or he is not all powerful. Of which some people conclude why worship such a "god".Obviously like most philosophy this paradox relies on certain premises that are all up for debate.
It made me wonder how people who have no religion cope with death, it must be really tough for them
Back on subject, a friend of mine died last month and he had a christian service. His wife and two girls are practicing christians and as he knew his death was approaching he relaxed his own natural scepticism to aid them in their grief. It was a moving ceremony but my lack of religion makes my coping with his death far from tough. It eases it imo, as does every time i pull into my drive and see the house he helped me build with his own hands.
I suppose you can detach religion from spirituality because I think that we are all spiritual beings to some extent. As the only creatures that spend their lives with an awareness of death we had to develop ways of dealing with it, and religion is one of them….as we grow up a realization that we will no longer exist and that we will at some point lose some of those that we love is the most frightening thing that we will have to face. I’m not religious myself [apart from having a sort of Christian ideology that if we were all kinda nice to each other the world would be a better place] but have found out over the years that of all of my friends the most devoutly religious ones have also been those that have studied science to a high level [physicists, metallurgists etc]. I’ve never really liked to delve deeper into their reasoning. Because we’ve developed communication skills we no longer tap into the instincts within us that are still there.
I think science and religion are simply different ways of interpreting the world. I don’t view either in terms of being right or wrong and certainly not definitive. Rather whether those interpretations are useful or not.
To my mind, when your’re dead, you’re dead. Put in the ground to rot like any other matter. All that remains is some else’s memories.
Simple that one in my opinion.
We should accept that there are some things ‘out there’ beyond human comprehension; what the universe is, where it came from and where it’s going being the big imponderable. The invoking of theist/deist religions (god(s) in the image of man) is in my view no more than a rationalising of the unknowable into something that is easy and comforting to believe for those selfish enough to assume we inhabit an anthropocentric universe.
The concepts of ‘big bang’ ‘spacetime’ ‘life’ ‘soul’ ‘consciousness’ ‘self’ are as troubling as they are fascinating, and have occupied my thoughts on and off for many a year. None the wiser, confusion abounds, remain open-minded
The Pantheist Credo will do me (with some reservations):
1. We revere and celebrate the Universe as the totality of being, past, present and future. It is self-organizing, ever-evolving and inexhaustibly diverse. Its overwhelming power, beauty and fundamental mystery compel the deepest human reverence and wonder.
2. All matter, energy, and life are an interconnected unity of which we are an inseparable part. We rejoice in our existence and seek to participate ever more deeply in this unity through knowledge, celebration, meditation, empathy, love, ethical action and art.
3. We are an integral part of Nature, which we should cherish, revere and preserve in all its magnificent beauty and diversity. We should strive to live in harmony with Nature locally and globally. We acknowledge the inherent value of all life, human and non-human, and strive to treat all living beings with compassion and respect.
4. All humans are equal centers of awareness of the Universe and nature, and all deserve a life of equal dignity and mutual respect. To this end we support and work towards freedom, democracy, justice, and non-discrimination, and a world community based on peace, sustainable ways of life, full respect for human rights and an end to poverty.
5. There is a single kind of substance, energy/matter, which is vibrant and infinitely creative in all its forms. Body and mind are indivisibly united.
6. We see death as the return to nature of our elements, and the end of our existence as individuals. The forms of “afterlife” available to humans are natural ones, in the natural world. Our actions, our ideas and memories of us live on, according to what we do in our lives. Our genes live on in our families, and our elements are endlessly recycled in nature.
7. We honor reality, and keep our minds open to the evidence of the senses and of science’s unending quest for deeper understanding. These are our best means of coming to know the Universe, and on them we base our aesthetic and religious feelings about reality.
8. Every individual has direct access through perception, emotion and meditation to ultimate reality, which is the Universe and Nature. There is no need for mediation by priests, gurus or revealed scriptures.
9. We uphold the separation of religion and state, and the universal human right of freedom of religion. We recognize the freedom of all pantheists to express and celebrate their beliefs, as individuals or in groups, in any non-harmful ritual, symbol or vocabulary that is meaningful to them.
As for death, well I’m with Paul
Ashes to ashes dust to dust
will the circle be unbroken?
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"
The philosophical answers to his question are either-
a) God does not exist or
b) God is either all powerful and evil or he is not all powerful. Of which some people conclude why worship such a "god".or c) I think that the actual belief in the eyes of christians is that there is evil in the world as life is a test, and evil is perpetrated by those that are failing the test. Your test is that you can keep faith in god above all tests set before you to make it into heaven.
John 14:5-21 Jesus said to him (Thomas), “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
Matthew 10:37-39 “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.”
I was made to go church from I was no age until I was about 15, and where I dont go any more, I would say I am god fearing rather than god worshipping. I believe that if there is an afterlife, then the pre-requisites for getting in there is that you are a good person in life, and I live my life to a variety of rules which I personally see to be ethically sound.
"Do unto others" for me is the most important rule in life, and where I am not intolerant of others religious beliefs I have always found that I do not get on very well with others who do not live to that rule, regardless of religion or background. In the forces I noticed over time that the main problem of the people I generally detested, and the people who I would just make no time for, was that they did not live to this rule.
Those people who did live by that rule I would best describe as, "they could often do you a good turn but never a bad turn". I would always go out of my way to do such people a good turn if called for.
A lot of people who proclaim to be christian get up on their high horse all the time, and loook down their nose at people who do not live their life as they see, and in some cases just seem to use being christian to socially establish themselves as a righteous person, but in most cases they would break the rule of the bible "judge not, lest ye be judged". I look at many of these die hard christians (or from extreme strains of christianity) that you see on television in America, and to me that is not christianity, much as I do not see the Roman Catholic church as really being christianity (and I dont include those who are roman catholic in that),as it can act as a political power rather than an existing religion.
Religions in my eyes are generally a list of ethical rules devised for those who cant find a set of ethical rules for themselves, and the laws of most countries in the world are based around the predominate religion in those countrys. My own sense of ethics is probably most comparable to christian ethics, as that is how I was raised, and I would expect that the same could probably be said of most people in predominantly christain countries who would refer to themselves as athiests or agnostics.
I dont fear death as to me it is merely the end of life as I know it. Whatever faces me when I die is something beyond me and I dont worry about it. I dont worry about what will happen to others when they die, but the lives of some people contribute to our own lives being better, and their absence will inevitably lead to a sense of loss. That, IMO, and possibly somewhat selfishly, is the aspect of death that is hardest to deal with, rather than the final destination of the deceased.
The Pantheist Credo will do me (with some reservations):
Thee and me both. Do as you will but harm none, y’all.
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Humans are just organisms and like any other organism – life begins and life ends – it’s a fact of life.
.. no good no evil, no love or hate, no right or wrong .. just molecules. Animals have no God. We had two cats who were sisters. One of them died about three years ago. The survivor didn’t seem to notice, she just put on a bit of wieght and took to sleeping more.
The Pantheist Credo will do me (with some reservations):
.. and me too. How we get to Utopia I don’t know. Thomas Moore didn’t think we would, or perhaps he knew we wouldn’t.
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