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Had Voy Por won it everyone would be saying that ‘he didn’t beat anything….’ but it was fascinating what they said on CH 4 about Guillaime Maquart [sp] deliberatley letting MM win both a chase and a hurdle in France thus taking away his novice status in this country…..
[Today i would say he he’s probably run just short of 180 but has won easily nevertheless
Come on now Bulwark, even if you were to be given the benefit fo the doubt and we slapped the low end of that bracket (call it 177) on Master Minded for today, the race overall would be coming out thus:
Master Minded 177
Well Chief 170
Petit Robin 168
Newmill 166
Scotsirish 161
Mahogany Blaze 154The rest having run no sort of race (Briareus looked as though he was about to run to 165 or so). I doubt many people would be having that.
I can accept those figures.
Well Chief is a champion in all but name
Petit Robin put in an awesome display earlier this season
Newmill surprised me, but he is an ex-champion
Scotsirish has hardly ever had the opportunity to run on Good ground, which his trainer says he prefers.Masterminded did what he had to do. Last year’s performance was almost a freak show. Do you reckon we will see that again from this guy?
The Moscow Flyer V MM contest is an intriguing one.
Personally, I think MM would have his measure, but I could see it being very close. I just think Nicholl’s chaser is more bombproof jumping-wise, and he has more gears.
Zip
Presumably nobody talked about Moscow Flyer in the same way as Master Minded because of his style of racing. Before Master Minded beat Voy Por Ustedes I don’t remember too many saying that the runner up was anything more than an average winner of the Queen Mother. Moscow Flyer proved himself time and again when the competition was that much more difficult. Judged on the proximity of the opposition today I fancy a below par Moscow Flyer would have picked up Master Minded with some ease.
[Today i would say he he’s probably run just short of 180 but has won easily nevertheless
Come on now Bulwark, even if you were to be given the benefit fo the doubt and we slapped the low end of that bracket (call it 177) on Master Minded for today, the race overall would be coming out thus:
Master Minded 177
Well Chief 170
Petit Robin 168
Newmill 166
Scotsirish 161
Mahogany Blaze 154The rest having run no sort of race (Briareus looked as though he was about to run to 165 or so). I doubt many people would be having that.
I can accept those figures.
Well Chief is a champion in all but name
Petit Robin put in an awesome display earlier this season
Newmill surprised me, but he is an ex-champion
Scotsirish has hardly ever had the opportunity to run on Good ground, which his trainer says he prefers.Im not sure if you are taking the mick out of us here but i didnt see any smilies.
I love Master Minded. I believe he may have run below his best today and he will win many more top class 2 mile races.
That said, only the bravest of people could look at the oppostion today and call them worthy opponents. Well chief could come on a lot from that but most of those horses would have been similarly destroyed by anything resembling a top class 2 miler from the past thirty years, never mind a badsworth boy, moscow flyer or Masterminded.
SHL
I’m sorry but I’m not having those ratings above. Since when has Scotsirish been a 160’s horse? Since when has Petit Robin? Newmill has – about three years ago.
Suddenly a dire load of two mile chasers have been turned into horses the equivalent of those that finished placed in the Champion hurdle!!
Not having it for a second. If Master Minded has run to 177 today I’m Ruby Walsh.
[Today i would say he he’s probably run just short of 180 but has won easily nevertheless
Come on now Bulwark, even if you were to be given the benefit fo the doubt and we slapped the low end of that bracket (call it 177) on Master Minded for today, the race overall would be coming out thus:
Master Minded 177
Well Chief 170
Petit Robin 168
Newmill 166
Scotsirish 161
Mahogany Blaze 154The rest having run no sort of race (Briareus looked as though he was about to run to 165 or so). I doubt many people would be having that.
Well to be honest I personally wouldnt go 1lb per length for a 2 mile chase on a quick enough looking surface at an average looking clip, because he was never going to be able to pull 20 lengths clear of that sort of that opposition because of the terms fo the race, however I still reckon that had there have been a 176 horse in the race, it would have been held. so I’d still have masterminded around about 177, but the rest of those ratings I personally would have,
At a pound per half length it would read.
Master Minded 177
Well Chief 163
Petetit Robin 159
Newmill 155
Scotsirish 145…Now I wouldnt say that a pound per 1/2 length would be accurate but I would say that it is much closer to giving you an accurate idea than going 1lb per length in this instance.
Going by the going description of Good-Soft and looking at the time of the race, 1lb per length should work, but the going description has looked completely duff for the last couple of days and it is riding much faster than that. Almost every race so far at the festival has either come down to speed, running position or in most cases both.
I said that I accept them, which means that I accept them within 2 lbs either way.
Scotsirish prefers Good going, and this is the first time this season that he has run on ground with "Good" somewhere in the title. He had won an Irish Grade 2 this year. Giving him 161 is not outlandish.
I admit Newmill surprised me, but at the same time, he came up the Hill well.
Petit Robin has been running well this season, and has put in RPRs of 159, 159 and 164 in his 3 previous starts. It is surely not out of order to give him a 168 on a lefthand track, compared to the 164 in the Victor Chandler.
As you say, Well Chief achieved his figures 3 years ago, but he has been out for 2 of those. Achieved ratings of 179 when 2nd to Moscow Flyer, and when winning the VC at Cheltenham.
The RPRs are out, so I’ll accept them instead.
171 Master Minded
165 Well Chief
163 Petit Robin
162 Newmill
157 Scotsirish
151 Mahogany BlazeThe RPRs are out, so I’ll accept them instead.
171 Master Minded
165 Well Chief
163 Petit Robin
162 Newmill
157 Scotsirish
151 Mahogany BlazeNot that dissimilar to how I rated it
170 Master Minded
163 Well Chief
161 Petit Robin
159 Newmill
154 Scotsirish
147 Mahogony Blaze
We/ve got wonder horses at both distances now, if VPU wins easily tomorrow will they all be pushed up again. It’s starting to get very silly!
Presumably nobody talked about Moscow Flyer in the same way as Master Minded because of his style of racing.
Moscow Flyer proved himself time and again when the competition was that much more difficult.
Agreed, stilvi.
I also agree with the majority of what Ian has had to say.
It’s very hard to say just how good Master Minded is compared to a horse of Moscow Flyer’s ability. Two very different horses.
It’s impossible to gauge Well Chief’s retention of ability, but it’s difficult to envisage a horse, returning from a near 700 day absence, to be at his best – his second longterm injury.
Master Minded was far from all-out, but it wasn’t exactly a walk in the the park and Well Chief wasn’t exactly beaten up, either. The latter was nursed round early on and slowly brought into contention. His lack of match fitness was evident when he got caught flat-footed two out, only to stay on well late-on.
The 2005 Well Chief would’ve been a completely different proposition this afternoon. Great to see the horse run so well, but quite sad that a horse with his ability has never won the race.
Nothing around to stop Master Minded completing a hat-trick next year, but the following year promises to be interesting with a few potentially high class recruits tackling the bigger obstacles next season, like Osana, Celestial Halo and Crack Away Jack.
You can’t knock what Master Minded has achieved, but I’d like to see him consistently tackle something of greater ability than what he has thus far.
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Going by the going description of Good-Soft and looking at the time of the race, 1lb per length should work, but the going description has looked completely duff for the last couple of days and it is riding much faster than that. Almost every race so far at the festival has either come down to speed, running position or in most cases both.
There you go again!
I wouldn’t pretend to be an expert clocker, but years of experience have shown that few races at the Festival aren’t run at a good pace – year in, year out, and to presume that the going for one race is good, and the rest are slowly run, is totally out of line with this, or previous year’s, patterns.
The QMCC apart, no other race today was run in less than 13 seconds above standard, which strongly indicate 2 things to me:
The overall going today was little different today from yesterday, that is soft, bordering on g/s, and the QMCC was run in a very fast time comparitively.
Sorry if that doesn’t fit in with your theories but, with the best will in the world, I’d take a deal more convincing that the going was anywhere near good ground, and from someone with much more experience in measuring such matters.Moscow Flyer proved himself time and again when the competition was that much more difficult.
Competition like err….Well Chief?
Master Minded can only beat whats there, Moscow Flyer would be another addition to the list of horses beaten by master minded if he were still about.
The sad thing is that if an in form Moscow Flyer were running at the moment, he would probably be under rated for trailing in behind master minded.
Those who "just dont buy into Master Minded being that good" are in for an unhappy few years in store.
Moscow Flyer proved himself time and again when the competition was that much more difficult.
Competition like err….Well Chief?
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Are you seriously trying to tell us that Well Chief is the same horse as he was three or four years ago? If so you have a short memory. He would’ve left Petit Robin and the rest of them way behind.
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Bosranic
For much of his career, Well Chief has been ridden as he was today, stalking the pace for most of the race, and only getting competitive toward the end of his races. Also, he returned after injury previously (possibly the same one?) to record a 161 RPR also after a 2 year break.
Given that, the fact he is still only 10yo, and whom he is trained by, it might be wrong to assume his absence was any bar to a decent performance today?He also faced top competition in the form of Azertyuiop, winner of two Game Spirits, an Arkle and a Champion Chase.
Native Upmanship, winner of several Grade Ones, was also a notable scalp.
Moscow Flyer won three Champion Chases and remained unbeaten over an incredible four seasons when completing.
Master Minded, a very exceptional talent, but he’s got someway to go before eclipsing Moscow Flyer.
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