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without VPU the Champion Chase would have been a poor quality one. But he was in it and beat the others very easily. I’d say VPU ran to the same rating as his win the previous year. VPU was probably a below average winner, but even so MM did not just beat him, he slaughtered him.
Mark
Value Is EverythingI have a theory about this Master Minded wonder horse thing and it goes back to a race at Sandown.
I regard Twist Magic as a definate non stayer yet he managed to win a race at Sandown on soft ground.
That rce bugs me something awful and I find myself asking hiow could that be. Slow pace perhaps but when you look at what finished second..none other than VPU.
I honestly think he is one of the poorest QMCC winners in the history of the race.
He’s a nice looking animal and a joy to watch but I honestly feel he is very limited in actual ability.
If he is as bad as what I think he is where does that leave us? I have seen may performance from horses who have won just like Master Minded did and you think WoW!!! then the next thing you know is they get stuffed.
When I saw Master Minded win at Cheltenham I was like everyone else. I even said he reminded me of Arkle the way he skipped round that final bend like a greyhound.
The came Tidal Bay who to my eyes is a real racehorse who has 10 victories to his name against a variety of different challengers.
Master Minded has beat the ame horse twice and that’ about that.
When they meet in the Tingle Creek I believe Master Minded will be meeting a much better class of animal than VPU in Tidal Bay and when push come to shove Tidal Bay will boot his backside into the next county.
I think Master Minded is a bit of a softy and will fold like a pack of cards when the chips are down. We saw evidence of it at Aintree and we would be foolish to ignore it.I am totally convinced of that but from a finacial point of view I hope I am 100% off the mark as I had a huge bet on Master mInded right after the QMCC for the renewal.
I have been advised my money is safe I am not so sure.
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Whatever your extensive experience (we’ll no doubt hear about it again at some point) tells you about Voy Por Ustedes, Fists, his form stacks up. Not withstanding his victories over the likes of Dempsey, he himself worthy of his rating of 165, the Tingle Creek result alone says that Master Minded achieved something quite spectacular in beating him in a canter.
I agree that Twist Magic doesn’t stay a yard further than two miles on anything less than good ground, but I don’t think the going at Sandown was THAT soft and they certainly went no pace early on. The winner cruised round, jumped for fun and won the race at the final two fences. Voy Por Ustedes had no answer to what pace Twist Magic was able to inject, but was closing again toward the finish. Monet’s Garden was well beaten in third having touched off Kauto Star on his previous run (albeit in receipt of 14lb), and the rest just weren’t good enough.
I don’t think there’s anything too untoward that can be said about Voy Por Ustedes overall, simply that his rating of 173 is perfectly legitimate and that he’s a very, very good animal. What Master Minded did to him at Cheltenham was nothing short of sensational and, as such, he will be unbeatable over the minimum trip for the forseeable future.
Can’t help yourself can you? no need for smart ass remarks mate but to continue the discussion.
What has VPU ever done to be called a great QMCC winner he was grossy over reated by the Handicapper. For pete’s sake mate read his form.
He won only two races last season. One when he was 2/5 against Hullbaloo and the other gainst Master MInded who stopped 3 out like he had been shot through the head. He failed at every other trun. The QMCC he won was a shocking race with the second starting at odds of 20/1 and River City who was another outsider at 33/1.
To my mind they rated him a mile too high and when Master Minded thrashed him they had no choice but send his rating through the roof.
If you are trying to tell me a horse who claim to fame is he has beaten the same horse twice has a record that stands up to Denman or Kauto Star or is even remotely as good then I am afraid you won’t get agreement from me.
Of course he was impressive and potentially he could be anything but I say beat Tiday Bay in the same fashion you beat VPU and then he is on the road to being somethng really special.
Whats so silly about these ratings is if Tiday Bay beats Master Minded by 5 lengths where are they going to rate him……….surely he would then be rated higher than Denman also?
It all stems from VPU a lesser Champion Chase winner who was rated too highly.
Incidentally I am not saying he is not a nice horse what I am saying he is no Moscow Flyer Badsworth Boy or Barnbrook Again.
Master Minded’s reputation is based on one outstanding performance – the Queen Mother Champion Chase.
It was a truly memorable performance, but I think it’s fair to say that far too many judges went OTT. It was a remarkable effort for a 5YO and he could finish his career with five or six QM titles to his name. He has demonstrated the ability that could see him become the most decorated horse of his generation, but at this moment in time it’s only potential.
I said after his QM romp that I’d like to see him demonstrate that ability over a number of seasons before we start comparing him with the greatest two milers in history.
I’d argue that Tidal Bay has shown the overall consistent and superior form since he set foot on a racecourse. Never finishing outside the first two, he was a good bumper horse, a very good novice hurdler and he has the ability to become a great chaser. It’s only due to his rather unfashionable connections, compared to the likes of Nicholls, Pipe, Henderson and King, that this horse has not received the plaudits he deserves. Inglis Drever has also been greatly under appreciated.
I’ve been ranting and raving about this horse for a long time now and it’s great to see people finally recognizing his talent.
As for Sandown, it will be his biggest jumping test thus far. He doesn’t strike me as a ‘rhythm jumper’ and perhaps he could find things happening a bit too quick for him, but he’s answered every question thrown at him and he could surprise a few.
Master Minded is a very slick jumper and he already has a course victory to his name. The track suits him and he goes well fresh. If the QM was no fluke, he should beat Tidal Bay in the Tingle Creek. If Howard Johnson’s horse gets within five or six lengths of him, don’t be surprised if he turns the tables at Cheltenham.
If he wins, well, we will have a very, very special talent to enjoy over the next few years.
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You can’t say that Master Minded still has to prove himself, in spite of what he achieved at Cheltenham, and then use his (potential) defeat to justify any superlatives you care to lay at the feet of Tidal Bay.
It’s not worth arguing about if only for the ‘fact’ that it will never happen, but if you believe that Tidal Bay is more consistent and already boasts superior form, what exactly would he achieve in beating Master Minded which would make him ‘very special’?
You couldn’t be described as going OTT, could you?
I don’t think there’s anything too untoward that can be said about Voy Por Ustedes overall, simply that his rating of 173 is perfectly legitimate and that he’s a very, very good animal.
Equitrack, there is no way on Gawd’s green earth that VPU’s 173 rating is "legitimate". The handicapper has him vastly over-rated, and saying he is "a very, very, good animal" is a touch hyperbolic.
He is certainly capable of high-class form on his day, but he is beaten too many times to be taken seriously in the very top bracket – imo.
I don’t think there’s anything too untoward that can be said about Voy Por Ustedes overall, simply that his rating of 173 is perfectly legitimate and that he’s a very, very good animal.
Equitrack, there is no way on Gawd’s green earth that VPU’s 173 rating is "legitimate". The handicapper has him vastly over-rated, and saying he is "a very, very, good animal" is a touch hyperbolic.
He is certainly capable of high-class form on his day, but he is beaten too many times to be taken seriously in the very top bracket – imo.
Grass
Would you view another case of vastly over-ratedness, known as Ogdenitis , Exotic Dancer in the same mould ?
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Legitimate in the sense that it’s not difficult to see why he was allotted it, Grass, having beaten the likes of Dempsey and Monet’s Garden, almost conceded 26lb to a more-than-fair-handicapper in Kalca Mome, and run a staying-on second to a top class two-miler in Twist Magic.
I can’t have it myself, Equitrack. A horse has to be exceptional to get a rating of 173 in my opinion, and VPU is certainly not exceptional – imo at least. His rating can only be derived from the Melling Chase, and that form is anything but solid, imo.
Conversely aaronizneez, I think Exotic Dancer has done enough in his now several runs against Kauto Star, to suggest that he is worth his 172 rating. He is proving extremely difficult to win with, I’ll grant you that, but that is largely to do with the fact that he is campaigned in the same races as Kautoi Star. If you question Exotic Dancer’s rating, then you have to start questioning Kauto Star’s, and a look through that horses form will quickly tell you that it is pretty much bullet-proof.
To any of the above – why does it seem that Chasers are routinely rated that much higher than Hurdlers?
Is it as simple as hurdles in the majority a stepping stone for chases? Can’t be as simple as that surely, as many hurdlers just below top class are sent novice chasing for the very reason they are just below top class?
They aren’t PC.
Istabraq was routinely rated higher than his chasing contemporaries – and the same was often the case with Baracouda and Limestone Lad (and to a lesser extent, Iris Gift).
You can’t say that Master Minded still has to prove himself, in spite of what he achieved at Cheltenham, and then use his (potential) defeat to justify any superlatives you care to lay at the feet of Tidal Bay.
It’s not worth arguing about if only for the ‘fact’ that it will never happen, but if you believe that Tidal Bay is more consistent and already boasts superior form, what exactly would he achieve in beating Master Minded which would make him ‘very special’?
You couldn’t be described as going OTT, could you?
There’s no doubt MM is a very talented individual, but one outstanding performance doesn’t make him a superstar.
Am I saying that he will be unable to justify his lofty rating? No, but he needs to demonstrate that level of ability on a consistent basis before we start hurling superlatives at him.
Two words of caution – Hawk Wing.
Tidal Bay has been competing in top class, championship races since his debut season in 2006 and he’s never finished outside the top two. He boasts consitently superior form because he’s been given the opportunity to do so.
Paul Nicholls French recruit hardly set the world alight in his native country.
His QM romp was incredibly impressive, even more so when you consider he was only a 5YO (well, still a 4YO, technically) and there’s no doubt he has the ability to become one of the most decorated two milers in history.
If Tidal Bay defeats him at Sandown, a big ask when you analyse their respective attributes, and MM goes on to collect a host of good races, then Tidal Bay could be very special when stepped up in trip.
Remember, Master Minded’s stamina was exposed at Aintree and his targets will be resticted to two mile events. Tidal Bay could apply his talent to a variety of trips. They’re not always going to clash.
There’s not too many horses in training who have both the Tingle Creek and King George on their agenda. This chap is in with a shout of winning both.
As I said, MM is a seriously good horse and conditions will be in his favour at Sandown. He goes well fresh and enjoys the track, which compliments his slick fencing. The Sandown fences are a great equalizer of talent and time and time again we’ve seen good jumpers with an average engine claim the spoils (not to imply that MM has an average engine). They place the emphasis on jumping at pace and I don’t think Tidal Bay is a ‘rhythm jumper’.
If he can overcome these obstacles and beat a horse who is potentially one of the best athletes we’ve seen, then there’s every reason to believe he could be special.
Kauto Star has not become an average horse overnight because he lost to Denman in the Gold Cup. It was a case of one great horse beating another on the day.
If Tidal Bay defeats Master Minded at Sandown, it doesn’t make the Queen Mother hero any less of a talent. It just means that, on the day, one potentially great horse beat another. The same applies if the placings were reversed.
Master Minded could win at Sandown and go on to even greater things, whilst Tidal Bay could develop into a top class staying chaser and win a plethora of good races.
It promises to be a great race and Tidal Bay is a horse we should all be very excited about. If Master Minded squashes him so early in the season, the two mile scene will be a formality.
There’s no doubt in my mind he will get three miles and he could also break into the elite club of Denman, Kauto Star and Neptunes Collanges and ruffle a few feathers.
Competition is what we all want and Tidal Bay is the only horse, thus far, that has demostrated the ability to beat the very best of last season.
Let’s hope we have a race and not a romp at Sandown.
I can’t have it myself, Equitrack. A horse has to be exceptional to get a rating of 173 in my opinion, and VPU is certainly not exceptional – imo at least. His rating can only be derived from the Melling Chase, and that form is anything but solid, imo.
Conversely aaronizneez, I think Exotic Dancer has done enough in his now several runs against Kauto Star, to suggest that he is worth his 172 rating. He is proving extremely difficult to win with, I’ll grant you that, but that is largely to do with the fact that he is campaigned in the same races as Kautoi Star. If you question Exotic Dancer’s rating, then you have to start questioning Kauto Star’s, and a look through that horses form will quickly tell you that it is pretty much bullet-proof.
Grass
I do question Exotic Dancers rating because I do (slightly) question Kauto Stars rating. As you may have guessed by now I don’t really rate ED as his rating is mainly based on Kauto Star and to a certain extent vice versa. Kauto Star is a very good horse no doubt and on his day given the right conditions, right handed track, 3 miles , goodish ground is nigh on unbeatable, but going the other way round on softish ground IMO is not the same beast, 7-10lb inferior once again IMO. Exotic Dancer has been closest to KS going right handed and therefore IMO his rating therefore suffers from that. Exotic Dancer has yet to win a Grade 1 chase where conversely VPU has won three, two at the be all and end all that is Cheltenham. I agree VPU is slightly overrated but give the horse its due from three chase runs at the festival its managed two wins and a second whereas I don’t recollect ED managing more than a second in one of the worst Gold Cup’s in recent years. Give me VPU over Exotic Dancer any day.
Fair enough, aaronizneez, though there’s very little in your post I agree with.
I guess my take is that ED has been unfortunate to run into horses the calibre of Kauto Star, and that’s why he doesn’t have too many in the Win column of late.
Conversely, VPU has often been found wanting whenever he has encountered anything with pretensions to top-class. I simply don’t subscribe to the theory that his Arkle and Queen Mother wins were much cope – beating horses who wanted further in his Arkle, and beating a poor field in receipt of an allowance in his Champion Chase.
Fair enough, aaronizneez, though there’s very little in your post I agree with.
I guess my take is that ED has been unfortunate to run into horses the calibre of Kauto Star, and that’s why he doesn’t have too many in the Win column of late.
Conversely, VPU has often been found wanting whenever he has encountered anything with pretensions to top-class. I simply don’t subscribe to the theory that his Arkle and Queen Mother wins were much cope – beating horses who wanted further in his Arkle, and beating a poor field in receipt of an allowance in his Champion Chase.
True but he did beat a horse rated 186 at Aintree off levels
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