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Not thick UN; just from a different planet – if you accept official going as a basis for your views.
So what if both going assessments were wrong and the going was similar? the maths just don’t add up. I’m not from spaceform.org
i am just interested in speedratings!I am also not anti MM i just can’t fathom where these "wonder horse" ratings come from, VPU IMHO is not a consistent enough yardstick.
Had Master Minded not been in today’s race and everything else had panned out exactly the same, anyone saying Well Chief was "back to his best" would be laughed out the room, by me if no one else.
If you are trying to tell me had Well Chief at his best was as good as this horse then "There’s the door or pick a window"
That’s not what I was saying at all. I didn’t think it could have been put much more simply in truth, but I’ll try:
There is no set of circumstances in which a 2-length beating of Petit Robin would ever wash with learned racing folk as Well Chief being "back to his best".
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UN
The going allowances for the 2 races show a difference of 0.3 secs per furlong; i.e.the races you are using for your comparison had a difference in the ground of 4.8 seconds for the 2m trip.
I’m not defending RP speed figures, but there is a clear discrepancy of more than 2 seconds between the 2 times when g/a are taken into account.
I would remind you that you were the one who said MM had never clocked a decent figure, if your sole basis is official going descriptions, then we seriously are from different worlds.I really think a lot of you are complicating things here.
This Moscow Flyer V Master Minded thing is something I coudn’t take serious.
Moscow Flyer was a workmanlike chaser who wore horses down. He was a very sound horse who could stand alot of racing. That allowed him to win many many bad races between the ones that counted.
What he lacked IMO was the stamp of a brilliant horse. He wasn’t a great jumper and didn’t have the gears of a truly great champion.
He certainly couldn’t jump anywhere near as well as Master Minded and he most certainly didn’t have anything like his acceleration.
When Master Minded won at Ascot I don’t care if Dunkirk himslef would have been in the race this horse would have beat him. Best performance on a racecourse since Arkle won his second Gold Cup in my book and that includes Kauto Star’s 2nd King George IMO.
How on earth anyone with two good eyes can’t see how special (stuff what he’s beaten) is beats the hell out of me.
Looking back at last years race when he sprinted up the Cheltenham Hill like a greyhound coming round the last bend I thought I was dreaming.
He’s gone on from there and at the tender age of 6 years old has won another Champion Chase and please don’t give that he’s French shyte.
The thing is he won the race by 7 lengths from a very good horse.
Paul Nichols pointed out that although he looks an easy horse to train he is not, Ruby reckons he had a bit of an off day and like Kauto Star last season the word of one of the best judges in the country falls on deaf ears.
God help anyone who is daft enough to doubt this horse and oppose him over 2 miles for the next couple of years.
What he lacked IMO was the stamp of a brilliant horse. He wasn’t a great jumper and didn’t have the gears of a truly great champion.
Got to take issue with you over this one Fists mate. Moscow lacked the gears of a truly great champion? Can’t have that for one second. Charlie Swan said several times that Moscow was the only horse that had the boot to go with Istabraq over hurdles. That is some compliment considering Istabraq is undoubtedly the best hurdler of recent times. Had the 2001 festival not been lost to foot and mouth it is entirely possible that Moscow would have beaten Istabraq in the Champion Hurdle and he might never have jumped a fence. He was in front of Istabraq when he crashed out at the second last in the Irish Champion Hurdle that January.
The thing about Moscow Flyer was is that nothing could ever get to the bottom of him over fences. He would only ever do enough and he’d always idle and prick his ears when he hit the front. He would only beat the likes of Steel Band and Glenelly Gale by a handful of lengths but he’d step up and do the same against top class opposition like Native Upmanship, Azertyioup and Well Chief. There was always plenty left in the tank.
Master Minded is undoubtedly a flashier type who will trash inferior opposition unlike Moscow who’d save plenty for himself. I will admit that he’s a much more consistent and economical jumper of obstacles and if both horses were to meet at their peak over two miles it would be a very close run thing. I think Master Minded might just slightly shade the argument over the minimum trip but over two and a half, Moscow would have picked him up and carried him.
Master Minded was put in his place over the intermediate trip by Voy Por Ustedes last year at Liverpool. It was in that Melling Chase where I feel that Moscow Flyer put up two of his greatest performances. I certainly couldn’t see Moscow trailing home 18L behind Voy Por Ustedes like Master Minded.
In conclusion then:
2m: Master Minded
2m4: Moscow Flyer
2m2: ?????UN
The going allowances for the 2 races show a difference of 0.3 secs per furlong; i.e.the races you are using for your comparison had a difference in the ground of 4.8 seconds for the 2m trip.
I’m not defending RP speed figures, but there is a clear discrepancy of more than 2 seconds between the 2 times when g/a are taken into account.
I would remind you that you were the one who said MM had never clocked a decent figure, if your sole basis is official going descriptions, then we seriously are from different worlds.If the figures are right i stand corrected. Same planet different beliefs although i share your scepticism of RP speedfigures.
Pipey gives an upbeat bulletin about Well Chief ahead of his seasonal reappearance.
- Total Posts 17716
Big Zeb was awesome today and Maid in Taipan is no slouch. He looks an improved animal from last season. Master Minded never looked the same horse this year at Cheltenham and Ruby said he never felt the same. Hard to judge what to expect this season but if there’s a glitch in the armour Big Zeb, taking it he doesn’t fall again. will find it.
Looks like it could be a very interesting race this year if the two stay apart and both remain unbeaten until Chelters
Unless we get decent ground for the Durkan (very unlikely), Murphy said he’ll send him to Sandown.
If the jumping holds up he’ll give any horse a race. I’d like to see Barry keep the ride but that may not be possible if Henderson has a runner (Petit Robin?), and Forpadydeplasterer would also be in the mix. Barry seems to have got on very well with the horse on his last three runs.
Strawberry O’Connor broke his collar-bone when Zaarito fell at Thurles so that will probably rule him out. Poor chap must be the unluckiest jockey riding.
i am just interested in speedratings!
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