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wit,
What would Hong Kong figures do to that argument?
It’s not as simple as turnover generated by the number of fixtures – many other factors must affect the decisions punters make, not least the culture of the country.
A real life example of downsizing. Italy has lost 50% of it’s races these past 8 years along with 66% of it’s betting turnover.
But which was the cause and which the effect?
Who cares really? (Though as an aside, I’ve heard it said many times that betting is a product that holds up well in a recession.
I’m just making a point about handing these self interested parties a meat cleaver to the racing calendar. (And I’m not saying an Italy would happen.)
That’s without even mentioning jobs.
Indocine, racing has been wielding its own meat clever in an act of self-butchery. Too many fingers scrabbling in the pie has made it the least attractive product for its retailers.
Racing is a ‘distress purchase’ for bookmakers who have made sure its market share has been slipping for years as they steer punters onto higher margin products.
The most effective working party racing could set up would be one that wielded the meat cleaver to media rights charges and these utterly foolish proposed data rights charges (more greedy fingers in the pie).
Punters should not be seeking a collective to bargain with bookmakers. If racing is to survive as anything like the sport we love, punters should be rebelling against some of the numbskulls who think the sport is strong enough to continue, long term, holding bookmakers to ransom.
But if you go to Italy you’ll find there has been a steep rise in the number of a) bookmaking shops (which used to be rare but are now becoming commonplace) and b) shops offering to ‘buy your gold’
wit,
What would Hong Kong figures do to that argument?
It’s not as simple as turnover generated by the number of fixtures – many other factors must affect the decisions punters make, not least the culture of the country.
the IFHA figures for HK are Eur 9.3bn betting turnover from 769 races at 2 courses and 1 racing body.
so they also would seem to support the general thesis.
HK government decides how many races HKJC can run, so who knows at what point betting turnover per race would go down in HK’s particular case if the number of races increased.
my own guess is that a few more meetings would not lower the per-race average but that it would start dropping at say 5 per cent more meetings.
(the third HKJC track being built a couple of hours over the border in the mainland is initially configured as a training-only facility, though with one eye to possible future conversion into a racecourse. but that would be aimed at a future liberalised mainland market.)
the cultural aspect I think is to a large extent already factored into the turnover / races equation.
eg consider the figures for Macau:
Macau gambling revenues are 7 times that of the Strip and 5 times that of Nevada as a whole (ie including Reno).
yet IFHA racing figures for Macau are not even in the billions:
Eur 205m from 498 races at 1 course and 1 racing body.
Wit , part of the explanation for Macau numbers rising is the poker effect , most of the worlds best and deepest pockets play there: having been disenfranchised with Vegas / the internet as a means for high roller games
Million dollar pots are commonplace each day , its action to the extreme ….some guys are going to get very rich , and some will lose everything …the game goes on
In the Uk , we will have a further explosion of polytrack with 2 more tracks in the offing , making more low grade available as the stable diet for horse bettors …sadly the brains behind all this cannot see the inevitable result 10 yrs down the track
imo
Ricky
Japanese parliament widely expected to legalise casino gambling later this year – so far betting is mainly on horses (keiba), J-league (toto), boat races (kyotei), bicycle races (keirin), lotteries (takarakuji) and pachinko.
its been estimated that with a dozen facilities Japan could generate USD 40bn turnover per year (Macau does 50bn, Singapore 7bn).
won’t see anything happen for about a decade though, since the parliament’s vote will just start the process of drafting detailed rules, awarding licences etc.
still, will be interesting to see what happens to horse betting when eventually it does appear.
does Kempton still have that gravel pit, and if so could it accommodate a bit of kyotei ?
basically, six speedboats race up to three laps around a 600m course, boats being assigned at random on the day – male and female pilots.
race proper starts at 1:45 in this clip:
Where Kirkland Tellwright is Clerk, you could run those races pretty much anywhere in the UK in winter
Don’t know if BHA lower themselves to read TRF but they have suddenly decided to ask the great unwashed about all weather racing.
They don’t seem to have told many about it though.If you want to add your ill-informed 4 penneth to the debate go to:
Sadly the UK folks are so used to receiving rip-off service from cradle to grave they have become totally apathetic. Even when the EU gets business and working conditions improved they want to leave that and are queuing up, eager to be exploited further.
Below is what the HANA boycott achieved at Churchill Down where CD simply raised take out percentages without consultation.
UK aligned to HANA could quickly eradicate the BHA lazy acceptance of cheating and over-watering punters get correct data of race distances, times, going sectionals , body weights. All of which are the norm in Hong Kong.
A betting boycott at Epsom/ Ascot would expose the bookmakers for the current state of price fixing and false markets from bet refusal." HANA: For many of you who took our last survey, asking you your opinion regarding the Churchill Downs increase in takeout, boycotting Churchill and its properties in whole or in part were important to you. We’d like to update you on what’s been happening.
In our blog post here, reprinted from PlayersBoycott.org, handle was shown to be off over $12 million since the start of the meet. This weekend the losses continued, and year over year Churchill Downs handle is off approximately $19 million dollars. When the special event days of the Oaks and Derby are taken out, handle this meet at Churchill is down over 23%.
Horseplayers are clearly speaking loud and clear with their wallets."
Your HANA Team
For one who only watched group 2 or better I have been astonished at so many inquiries;jockeys being fined but results stands! Punters must wonder what has to happen to change the results.Not enough for your horse to be bumped,bored ,taking his ground,careless riding, excessive use of the whip and who knows what else.Surely someone from the press needs to be part of the inquiry,to guarantee openness and honesty.At what point,unless of course the race is televised in which case we should hear all questions asked of jockeys, trainers,(who needs to hear trainers?) if an apprentice is part of the inquiry,and their answers of course; does someone decide that the winner cheated? And that it is not O.K. to cheat?
You’ll have heard, or spotted on here, that Nick Rust at the BHA has created a Horseracing Bettors Forum. There have been some misguided attempts to involve punters in the past, let’s hope this is a more successful enterprise.
In launching it Rust calls out this :- ““One of the three key aims of our Industry Growth Strategy is to reverse the slow decline in betting on British Racing, and to achieve 5% growth on 2014 participation levels by 2020. Being in tune with betting consumers is important to our cause.”
A couple of comments – 5% increase in six years? Hardly inspiring stuff. And when he talk about participation levels is he referring to the “nine million people who bet on British Racing each year”? If so, that would be an increase of 450,000. As the UK population will increase by 2.4 million (2015 to 2020 source) then this should be achievable by, more or less, standing still.
Also worth pointing out that the BHA’s published ‘Strategy for Growth’ was a bit more bullish – here’s an extract
“Key Targets:
The targets that were outlined at the Industry Updates are ambitious, as it was felt the sport needs to aim high in order to stimulate growth across these four important areas.
Participation:
Increase the number of horses in training – 1,000 new horses by 2020
Raise betting participation levels – up 5% by 2018
Increase racecourse attendance levels – reaching 7 million by 2020Funding:
New income for the sport – £120m p.a by 2018”
Clearly the feeling that the sport should ‘aim high’ has been already been tempered during the first flush of Rust’s getting to grips with the realities.
All that aside – they’ve chosen a good man to chair the forum. Simon Rowlands is an independent character who I am sure won’t let his ties with data provider Timeform and their owner Betfair get in the way. I’m equally sure that (if he is allowed) he will choose a good team and I’m also sure that Rust’s intent is to improve things.
But they face a mighty task. Representing a group as diverse as UK Horserace bettors will be a challenge. Simon’s own passion for data and information is perhaps reflected in this comment from the launch statement: “The Forum will meet on a quarterly basis and discuss topics such as the Fixture List and race programme, data and information provided to those betting on British Racing, the Betting products available on the sport and any other innovations that the Forum believes would be of benefit to British Racing.”
We all have our own thoughts about what such a forum should focus on I am sure.
For me the primary factor that concerns punters is the integrity of the sport (indeed it is one of two ‘foundation pillars’ of the BHA’s strategy). I’d hope the forum is able to have a say on how integrity is policed, not only on doping but how the rules govern non-triers, etc.
What things do you think should be top of the agenda when this group first meet?
And who do you think Simon should be urging to apply for membership? Chris Cook and Alan Lee would be two I’d like to see involved (although you wouldn’t necessarily want too many journalists). You’d look for some successful punters on there too, but would they really be interested?
An intriguing development however it shakes out.
I would agree that integrity of the sport is an issue that needs to be looked at and perhaps this could include stewarding and the possibility of centralised stewarding. Costs of going racing. I do think that data and information is an important thing. We are in a modern world with modern technology and need to get the young involved, they like data and such things, look at poker.
Who should be on it is a hard one to answer. I do think we need some ordinary punters. They don’t nessecarily have to be succesful either or well known. What is needed is people who are passionate about the sport and want to see it grow.
And the most important thing (for un-educated riff raff like me) look into getting a spell check on TRF
.Horseracing is a Goldmine,its not a potential Goldmine, it creates Millions of pounds per year but how the monies created are distributed has the same old adage attached.’The Rich get richer the poor get poorer’.Greed in Racing is rife and always has been.There is a Class divide in Racing and its getting wider.Royal Ascot results prove where all the money goes and Southwell Results confirm where the dregs go.Like any business, Racing can only be sold by Salesmen,our Salesmen are the Jockeys and Ryan Moore couldn’t sell a Toffee apple to a kid.Those who make fortunes from the sport are more than content with the way things are and dont want to rock the Toffee apple cart.Whoever created the idea of Concerts after racing deserves commending,the music industry is just the same as Horseracing,Millions of pounds thrown around like litter but its the artists themselves picking it up so Racecourses are making far less than they should from such ventures.What is re-assuring is the numbers who support Horseracing in this country and the big occassions are massive successes irrelevant of seasonal change.I like the ideas that Mr Rust proposes its a foot in the right direction but where Humans and Money are involved there will always be those who cream off the profits for personal gain and give little back.Thats you again Ryan,he couldn’t give a Toffee (Apple) for those punters that support his Profession.Thats Racing in a nutshell.
Data and betting product is very important, really is down to the bare minimum here. A look at the Hong Kong Jockey Club website shows what can and should be available to punters, we are leagues behind on this front which is pretty shameful.
Simon Rowlands will be a good man to chair I agree, amongst other things, he is at the forefront of sectional timing etc in this country and no doubt would like to see new products available.
I’d like to see Alan Potts on a bettors committee, bettors who have lots of experience of going through the turn styles, having their toes in the ring etc, I wouldn’t want to see a committee littered with racing journalists. I think you are right, David, when you say ‘Representing a group as diverse as UK Horserace bettors will be a challenge’, not sure how big this committee will be but it will of course need diversity, I just hope it can stay in keeping with representing punters interests.
In that sense how will it work in terms of longevity? Will it become just another exclusive racing club, how will it keep fresh and innovative etc?
I think that the chairman role is limited to a two year tenure and they anticipate forum members will serve no longer than two years thus I guess securing new ideas and avoiding staleness. Alan Potts would be a good call though whether he would have the appetite I wouldn’t know. James Knight would be a decent call were it not for his conflict of interest as an employee of the bookmakers, who are already well represented within BHA committees, etc.
Can’t believe how naive some people are.
Thought Rust was very unconvincing in his excellent (Lydia not him) interview with Lydia Hislop at Royal Ascot last week.
He thought there was no alternative to Newcastle going AW
He thought punters had no problems getting bets on
He even attempted to doctor the percentage of AW meetings by including jumps meetings until quickly picked up by Lydia
Think people are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think any benefit of this will come for punters.
The BHA want punters to lose, the more they lose the more the BHA get from bookmakers.
4 meetings yesterday, not one race worth £5k to the winner. Expect little change while bookmakers are running racing.
I wouldn’t touch this farce of a forum with a bargepole.
Please, please, don’t include any racing journalists.
There’s not likely to be much of use that members of this cosy little club could contribute, lifelong lickspittles most of them, no boat-rocking from that quarter.
But I do accept it is very hard to know where to look for someone suitable.
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