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I can confirm from experience that even getting the powers to be to ensure that proper going stick readings are taken can be likened to teeth being pulled.
Dont think its punter representation as such, just that punters as a group are given accurate and updated information as soon as is possible and are not misled.
That shouldnt be a hard thing to attain!!
The point of the information released, certainly in days of yore, was to assist the punter in the art of losing their money rather than the perceived belief. The important information, such as a whether a horse is off, is always kept down to a need to know minimum.
- Total Posts 102
Eclipse, i was mainly talikng about going reports and accurate reporting of the distance of races, which aligned with mysterious rail movements, can be a bit of a lottery
The thorny issue of how best to have the interests of punters represented has long been a conundrum. But how do you do that? Surely even the most backward thinking of individuals can see that it must be in the general interest of racing to hear the voice of its major customer, along with owners in fact racing’s only customer.
It’s been mooted that bookmakers provide the most effective vehicle for punter’s views. True, they have an influential voice and true also that they have shared interests. But such is their conflict of interest that they will never cobcern themselves with all the key issues for punters. For example, the crumbling sp system, so weighted in bookmakers favour, would never feature on their ‘change’ list.
So, what is the answer? How does racing both listen more effectively and, just as importantly, show that it is listening?
For me, the style of leadership is important. Linked to that is the effectiveness of communication, both looking out from within and vice versa. Racing’s leaders are defensive of the status quo, slow to react and much too heavily influenced by their partners (racecourses, trainers, bookmakers, etc) and seem to not have effective vehicles to listen to their customers (owners and punters).
Things seem better, in terms of leadership Bittar seems a step forward. But good talker though he is, what has oactually been done to improve the punter’s lot?
I don’t have the answer, btw. But it is an important question. Otherwise the bookmakers will continue to convince racing that racing’s customer sits in a bookies all day looking for ever more opportunities to bet on, well, anything.
I think Mark Coton tried to organise some punters’ body years ago.
For all its merits as an idea, it would be like herding cats.
Agree the NAPP type idea isn’t a goer Joe. But I believe it is down to the BHA to put together some kind of representative panel/forum through which they get strong first hand advice/guidance/lobbying on behalf of their main customer.
But who would be qualified to offer such advice/representation? It’s a job I wouldn’t take for a fortune a year – you’d be the pig in the middle: a million punters haranguing you from one side, and the powerful, who know you’re only there as a token, smirking on the other as all the heat is off them and on you.
Corm , Im not biting really
…but you might ask Jim Mc Grath of the morning line/Timeform fame , what his experiences were , as he did represent punters (supposedly ~) when he was on the board of the BHBimo
Ricky is right.
The Jockey Club recognised that punters had to be represented at board director level when the BHA took over. The role was diluted until it eventually disappeared.Almost all failing UK concerns such as BHA have a decide without consultation and spin/bluster/lie model that they were right when it does not work out. Those businesses which do not decide anything until they ask the customers what might be the best option make fewer mistakes, get things done quicker, and get people’s buy-in from the start.
Racing needs punters more than ever if it is to survive with the huge amount of alternative and better run sports on offer these days.
The apathy of UK couch potatoes is another huge burden to overcome.
USA now have HANA
"Mission Statement:
H.A.N.A. is committed to giving horseplayers a voice."
They have been a huge success as the racing industry now have someone actually to talk to directly.
They produce an excellent free monthly mag which puts most UK products to shame.Perhaps one way forward is to ask HANA if they could take forward a UK branch.
Has this thread died out from terminal apathy?
It is your sport that is rapidly going down the pan.
Punters need representation. Trouble is it is impossible for us to agree or vote on one.
In my opinion it needs someone like Mellish or Freemantle.
Value Is EverythingMy suggestion, made in print 8 years ago, was that there should be some sort of an ombudsperson for punters. This individual would not concern themselves with the minutiae of bet disputes but would make it their business to keep the industry honest regarding things like starting prices and changes to each-way terms etc as well as ensuring that punters’ views were canvassed as far as possible.
The parallel I drew was with consumers, who do not have many shared interests as individuals but who collectively are seen as having rights and the need for appointed bodies to protect those rights.
Any pressure group purporting to represent punters would very likely be doomed to failure from the outset, as they would have no real mandate.
The appointment of individuals to the BHB/BHA who were charged with "taking an interest in" punters’ affairs (but not in any way with creating a culture which took punters seriously) was the ultimate fig leaf.
IBAS has been handling bet disputes ever since the old Green Seal Service in the Sporting Life stopped. To the best of my knowledge, IBAS have had very few complaints from punters who have had dealings with them – and bookmakers invariably stand by an IBAS ruling.
As for fair SPs, the fairest way is the one not many punters seem to want; the pricing of a market based on supply and demand. I’d estimate that 98% of bets in SP markets are now placed electronically – either online ot through Epos tills. It wouldn’t take much for a betting market to be constantly updated live as bets go on, with the final price at the off being the SP.
At the moment, a handful of bookmakers on track taking ever-decreasing amounts of money in the main, are judged by a couple of SP reporters. This brings in subjectivity, a lack of data of what’s really happening in the market – how much are those prices actually being laid for? And, there is also the danger of intimidation/corruption of those individuals. And, most importantly, bookmakers can manipulate the market legally; in some cases a few hundred pounds on a horse can halve its price.
Yet, Big Mac used to lead the ‘over my dead body’ brigade on industry SPs, and the idea is seldom raised these days, when it’s much easier to execute and almost certainly of more advantage to punters than bookies.
In case it wasn’t clear, I specifically said that a betting ombudsperson would NOT concern themselves with bet disputes but with bigger issues.
Tend to think the whole IBAS business is worth a separate thread, but there are plenty who would question your description of them.
In case it wasn’t clear, I specifically said that a betting ombudsperson would NOT concern themselves with bet disputes but with bigger issues.
Tend to think the whole IBAS business is worth a separate thread, but there are plenty who would question your description of them.
Simon, I interpreted you perhaps too literally – ‘the minutiae of bet disputes’. Anyway, I’ve found IBAS to be fair all round in any dealings I’ve had with them or heard of. Of course they will not please everyone, although they did finally get the gentleman who took to them, in 2012, a perceived underpayment of 4p on his EW Round Robin to accept that his calculations were incorrect and that 46p was the correct payout.
Don’t know why you have brought up IBAs – they do not represent punters, nor do they consult punters on any issues regarding racing or betting.
I would not touch IBAS with a bargepole.
I have heard nothing but scorn for their wholesale bias towards bookmakers.
With the Gambling Act, IBAS cannot deal with any disputes concerning legal aspects and most disputes are for illegal failure to honour bets or illegal unfair terms and considerations.
A Small Claims Court summons sorts out cheating bookmakers in no time.
…but you might ask Jim Mc Grath of the morning line/Timeform fame , what his experiences were , as he did represent punters (supposedly ~) when he was on the board of the BHB
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