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Not sure why Frankel has ended up on this thread,but the idea that he hasn’t been kept to a simple path is laughable of course he had. Im not saying I would of wanted Frankel to run in the derby but surly that he was bred for.
After all he is a home bred and his 3 parts brother stayed the trip well and one could argue very successfully that Galileo is a greater influence for stamina that his sire ever was and if Prince K had wanted a miler then why not send the dam to Oasis dream or Dansili?? No when he sent her to Galileo it was probably the aim to produce a derby winner.Frankel has kept an easy path this term with 4 races and surly the true test of a thoroughbred is to let them take on the best around??
People may criticise Coolmore and Ballydoyle but one thing they never do is duck a challenge and if Frankel had been there then he would of took in the Eclispe/international/and Irish champion for sure.
How could anyone think such rubbish. He is only a three year old.It would be like sending a man out to work for goodnessake.
Really cant blame Cecil for placing Frankel to advantage,when they are unbeaten the pressure builds to keep that record.Next season his match wont be with SYT,more likely it will be Black Caviar. Her trainer Peter Moody expects her to make it 14 from 14 At Caulfield on Saturday though states 5f is too short for her now and says he cant wait to get her to a mile in our Autumn. Imagine if both met still undefeated,have to be close to the biggest match up in racing history.He has said she will be at royal Ascot next year.
As far as December Draw and Glass Harmonium go:
December Draw improved throughout the 2010 season, winning two handicaps and just a length third in a listed race for William Knight. Mr Knight isn’t thought to be one of our best trainers and not surprising December Draw has maintained that improvement for his Australian connections this term. For which they obviously deserve credit. It’s interesting December Draw has an Australian bred dams sire Danzero.
Glass Harmonium went in to the 2010 season as an unexposed four year old, capable of improving in to a Group 1 animal. So much so I put him in a ten to follow competition. Started off well by beating subsequent Group 1 winner Redwood in the Group 3 Gordon Richards. Only third in his next race (the Brigadier Gerard) when held up off a slow pace. Started 13/8 fav but beaten by Stotsfold who has a turn of foot and the front running Tazeez. Hampered on the turn when only 6th at Royal Ascot in the Group 1 Prince Of Wales. Not that he is good enough to win a race like that. Couldn’t recapture early season form after a small injury kept him off until October. Again 6th in the Group 1 Champion and well down the field in Hong Kong only other run.
For all the bluster about Glass Harmonium improving for his Australian connections, he’s still to win a Group 1. However, potential shown for Sir Michael Stoute early in his career could yet be proven in Australia. Sir Michael is known as one who gives horses time to recover and hope his Australian colleagues give him credit for doing so, if a Group 1 race comes Glass Harmoniums way.
I do appreciate that Glass Harmonium was going around in good races there and not performing badly Ginger Tipster.He was very unlucky not to win the Group 1 Doomben Cup, his record here is 7 starts 1 win 4 seconds 1 3rd and 1 4th.The 2 that have really shone are My Kingdom Of Fife and December Draw between the two they have had 12 starts for 9 wins and 3 seconds the 3 seconds being very narrow defeats and both are Group 1 winners. It can be noted that these 2 horses have basically raced 2 weeks apart, i think that is a key to consistency not to mention the very good job that Chris Waller and Mark Kavanagh have done with them. I believe So You Think thrived on racing and would have been better suited to a couple of quicker back ups over there as he is quite a gross horse as well.
Not sure why Frankel has ended up on this thread,but the idea that he hasn’t been kept to a simple path is laughable of course he had. Im not saying I would of wanted Frankel to run in the derby but surly that he was bred for.
After all he is a home bred and his 3 parts brother stayed the trip well and one could argue very successfully that Galileo is a greater influence for stamina that his sire ever was and if Prince K had wanted a miler then why not send the dam to Oasis dream or Dansili?? No when he sent her to Galileo it was probably the aim to produce a derby winner.Frankel has kept an easy path this term with 4 races and surly the true test of a thoroughbred is to let them take on the best around??
People may criticise Coolmore and Ballydoyle but one thing they never do is duck a challenge and if Frankel had been there then he would of took in the Eclispe/international/and Irish champion for sure.
Newyork,
Not sure if we should continue the Frankel debate on the Arc thread but….
Just because Frankel’s close relation Bullet Train stays middle distances doesn’t mean Frankel will.
Frankel is by stamina influence Galileo, but he’s out of Kind. Kind is out of a middle-distance horse Rainbow Lake (by Rainbow Quest (another stamina influence) winner of the Lancashire Oaks. Yet Kind is by Champion Sprinter (and third in the Guineas) Danehill. Danehill is also by one of the best speed influences in Danzig.
Horses, take different genes from both parents and decendents. As far as stamina is concerned, Kind herself took much more after her sire Danehill’s family than her dam Rainbow Lake. Too enthusiastic to stay very far, never settling and ended up a sprinter, winning at listed level.
Kind’s close relation Bullet Train is by Galileo’s sire Saddlers Wells. Obviously for his temperament / stamina he took more after his sire than dam Kind.
Frankel has a lot of his dams influence, wanting to get on with it. Much more difficult to settle than Bullet Train. Therefore far less likely to stay as far as his close relation. Given time it may be Frankel will get over some of his free going tendencies. Until then it is quite right he should be kept to a mile. Am sure you would’ve seen Frankel in the Derby had he been easier to settle. Unfortunately it proved impossible.
His runs this term have been nothing to do with taking an "easy path", everything to do with what is best for the horse. As for Coolmore never "ducking a challenge" – well they keep on about So You Think’s pace and how he’d be effective at a mile. Why didn’t he take on Frankel at a mile?
Value Is EverythingIf you want it straight from the horses mouth, have a look at the atr website and watch Sir Hen talking about Frankel.
He doesnt think for a single second that Frankel would have stayed the Derby trip in June and, like Ginge says, continually points out that he must do what is right for the horse not what is right for members of the public.
I also think everyone needs to hold fire until the whole play has been acted out. Frankel, unlike some of the others mentioned in this thread, IS staying in training next year where he WILL, according to trainer, be campaigned over further.
Henry’s aim with this horse is for him to prove himself SO good that there is not even a debate about him being one of the best of all time. He hates fielding that question anyway and wants the horse to have done all the talking by the time he is retired.
I would love to see him tried over 1m 4f in the King George next year and, if he wins the POW going away, it might just happen. There is clearly plenty of stamina in the pedigree and he couldnt have done what he did at Newmarket or Ascot without it. Perhaps he would have got 10f this year but if Henry plans to run him over that distance next year he may as well stick to a mile this.
As Ginge points out, his dam was a sprinter but she did win over 7f and Roger never tried her over further because he could never get her to settle. She was BRED to get further though. Henry, it seems, is winning that battle with Frankel which would again help his cause over further.
Hand on heart, I would love to have seen him run once more this year and I can totally understand the arguement that Henry has been particularly soft on the horse. All I would repeat is that there is a bigger picture in mind and I hope that noone will have any complaints at the end of his 4 year old career. Me included!
This is Henry’s once in a lifetime horse. He has seen the careers of Reference Point, Commander in Chief, Indian Skimmer, Bosra Sham and others fizzle out disappointingly and I am sure wants to avoid the same thing happening here.
Roll on the 15th anyway – it can’t come a day too soon!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Henry isn’t wrapping him in cotton wool he’s only 3 years old and to date his best trip is 1 mile. Anyone with half a brain and a nonce for business would do exactly what Henry has done.
As far as So You Think being the best 10f horse in the world is concerned,that means very little. Can you for example name another specialist 10 furlong horse he has beaten?
Let’s look at what he’s achieved:-
He had a canter round the Curragh against selling platersHe beat Campanoligist a 12 furlong horse by 4 lengths who was then stuffed by Await the Dawn at Ascot.
He then gets beaten by the 2010 St Leger fav Rewilding running at least 2 furlongs below his best trip.
He then beats Derby and Arc winner Workforce who was running well below his best trip and I think it is safe to say isn’t a shadow of the horse he was last season.
He then beats Snow Fairy who’s trainer is adamant was not fully wound up as her main target was the Arc where she reversed placing with him.
Compare that to what the likes of what Sea The Stars achieved and you get a pretty moderate "best in the word" as far as class animals go.
Face facts you’ve been sold a lemon by AOB and the media and So You Think while a good horse is a long long way from being a great one.
I stand by what I said he couldn’t cope with Frankel.
What Frankel did in the Guineas and subsequently what he did to Canford Cliffs was a million light years ahead of anything So You Think has achieved
I hope they do meet next season, if they do 10 furlongs or not he wouldn’t get Frankel out of 2nd gear.
Read what you are writing mate!!! Rewilding was 2f short of his best distance, Workforce was below his best distance and not a shadow of the horse he was last season, Snow Fairy was’nt wound up!!! Full of excuses mate! For the record Danedream was for too good for them, but you are making excuses for the horses SYT has beaten. Then you judge Frankel on a 3yo win and then beating Canford Cliffs who many would say showed all was not well by hanging to the outside fence.If you wish to believe that Rewilding was an out and out 10 furlong horse, That Workforce who has won nothing this season is as good as ever and think Ed Dunlop lied when he said Snow Fairy wasn’t 100% and still believe it after proving him right when reversing placings with So You Think then I bow to your superior understanding of racing and training methods.
Slight deviation from fact here. Dunlop said she was ready at Leopardstown.She was ready to take on the world. There always is an excuse with Stouty,even when he uses a pacemaker.Probably the best race Workforce run since the Derby.Michael is very fussy about going and distance,he don’t like to be beaten.Incidentally a mile and two was probably Sea the Stars best distance.But he still won over the Arc distance.
Again what’s with "he is only a three year old"? That is a lame excuse since three year olds win Arcs and US Triple Crown races.Three is when you can take on the world at distances up to a mile and six without meeting older horses.All the competition is only three.Most trainers would have taught a horse to settle by three and to go on in distance by then. Trouble is Henry is no longer a young stud himself.Can you imagine him ducking the Derby thirty years ago ?Not sure why Frankel has ended up on this thread,but the idea that he hasn’t been kept to a simple path is laughable of course he had. Im not saying I would of wanted Frankel to run in the derby but surly that he was bred for.
After all he is a home bred and his 3 parts brother stayed the trip well and one could argue very successfully that Galileo is a greater influence for stamina that his sire ever was and if Prince K had wanted a miler then why not send the dam to Oasis dream or Dansili?? No when he sent her to Galileo it was probably the aim to produce a derby winner.Frankel has kept an easy path this term with 4 races and surly the true test of a thoroughbred is to let them take on the best around??
People may criticise Coolmore and Ballydoyle but one thing they never do is duck a challenge and if Frankel had been there then he would of took in the Eclispe/international/and Irish champion for sure.
Ballydoyle duck a challenge? Tell me again, who were their representives in the Sussex Stakes. I would have thought that with all the talent at their disposal they could have found one or two to show their face.
As far as Galileo being an influence for stamina, one should not confuse the general with the particular. Tagula is an influence for milers of modest ability, but that does not stop Canford Cliffs being one of the best milers of the past ten years. Montjeu is an influence for high class flat horses with classic potential, but that does not stop Swiss Guard’s best efforts being in two-mile hurdles at Lingfield, Perth and Worcester.
Poor Sir Henry must be worrying in his bed at night that Midday (by the 6f sprint champion Oasis Dream) has been winning six Group 1 races over middle distances, and over two million pounds, when she should obviously have been trying to win the Golden Jubilee, the July Cup, the Nunthorpe and the Prix de L’Abbeye. With no thought at all to the wishes and desires of some few racing fans who know better than he the requirements of his horse.
And that faint-heart John Gosden whose Nathaniel is by Galileo and does stay twelve furlongs, has ducked the challenge of the Derby, the Irish Derby and the Prix De L’Arc de Triomphe. With no thought at all to the wishes and desires of some few racing fans who know better than he the requirements of his horse. (Don’t tell John Gosden I said that, he looks as though he has huge fists.)
Why did John Oxx duck the challenge of being the first trainer in 41 year to train the winner of the Triple Crown? With no thought at all to the wishes and desires of some few racing fans who know better than he the requirements of his horse.
If you have a trainer who has been successful over 10, 20 or more years with all sorts of horses; laid-back, buzzy, temperamental, injury-prone, hard-puller, late-maturing, etc. ; over 6, 8, 10, 12, 16, 20 furlongs, I would take a guess that his owners entrust a horse to him because he continues to show that he knows what he is doing. Whether that is Sir Henry Cecil, Aiden O’Brien, John Gosden, Dandy Nicholls, Sir Michael Stoute or John Oxx. The key point is: they know their horses and what is right for them to be successful. Why on earth would anyone expect them to run a top class horse in circumstances when they thought it had a low probability of winning, and in so doing spoil their chance of winning a good race that is within their compass?
Slight deviation from fact here. Dunlop said she was ready at Leopardstown.She was ready to take on the world. There always is an excuse with Stouty,even when he uses a pacemaker.Probably the best race Workforce run since the Derby.Michael is very fussy about going and distance,he don’t like to be beaten.
Andyod,
I agree, we should not care too much what connections say about their horses, when we can judge the horse’s performance on what they do on course.Snow Fairy produced her best when second to So You Think.
Workforce might have been a pound or two below his very best 12 furlong form in the 10f Eclipse. Still his best run of the season and an excellent performance by both he and victor So You Think. Incidentally, Workforce proved by breaking the course record in the Derby that he acts well on a firm surface. Sir Michael’s unwillingness to run on a similar surface these days more to do with the horse’s soundness than effectiveness. Andyod, your assertion that "there’s always an excuse with Stoutey" is strange when compared with Sir Aidan.
Just because Rewilding started favourite for the St Leger, many people dismissed his chance in the 10f Prince Of Wales but that isn’t how it turned out. An outstanding record fresh and able to keep up a good consistent 10f pace in a strongly run race. The Prince Of Wales was his best effort. It is possible (though not certain) So You Think went for home too soon considering the pace, having been a bit free early. A touch below his very best?
Value Is EverythingWas going to respond to a few other points, but MV’s excellent post has said it all for me.
Value Is EverythingSo you don’t think Sir Henry is getting a tad long in the tooth and playing is safe with Frankel? What took him so long to get Frankel to settle? Two years! We don’t rush things any more. The Ivy is beginning to peel.Time to amble into the rosegarden,trim back the shooters and get out the brandy and the old rocking chair,muse contented on a job well done. Maybe we will go for a mile and two next year.
Fantastic post MV!
Andy unfortunately Sir H IS getting long in the tooth. He has cancer too. Neither have prevented him completing one of the most remarkable sporting comebacks of all time.
I seem to remember STS pulling the arms off Mr Kinane in the Derby. Probably not as easy as it looks this training lark!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Ha ha a decent horse yes you are right that much is definitely obvious. Actually he’s a shitload better than decent my friend.
I don’t think he is a "shitload" better than decent. Sorry. I think Frankel is, I thought Sea The Stars was. I dont think SYT is.
…you’re kidding yourself what myopic anti-ballydoyle drugs are you on mate?
I have posted maybe a handful of times on this site. I have no idea where you get the idea I am anti-ballydoyle. Just because I dont share your opinion of a horse doesn’t mean I think Aiden is the Anti-Christ
The horse came from basically last on the turn chasing a horse that burned it’s last 800 and was carrying a lot less weight.
Whether the WFA scale and/or filly allowance are correct and just is a different discussion, but they are there for a reason. I dont think SYT ran badly at all, I thought it was an admirable run, a run of a good G1 performer.
Don’t let your coolmore hate influence your admiration and love for a great galloper like SYT.
I DONT HATE Coolmore
How can I prove this to you? Whether that is Sir Henry Cecil, Aiden O’Brien, John Gosden, Dandy Nicholls, Sir Michael Stoute or John Oxx. The key point is: they know their horses and what is right for them to be successful.
Are you really trying to suggest these trainers never make mistakes and are in some way beyond criticism? By all means if you want to doff your cap to these giants of the turf but I would suggest just like anyone else they sometimes get things right and they sometimes get things wrong.
Whether that is Sir Henry Cecil, Aiden O’Brien, John Gosden, Dandy Nicholls, Sir Michael Stoute or John Oxx. The key point is: they know their horses and what is right for them to be successful.
Are you really trying to suggest these trainers never make mistakes and are in some way beyond criticism? By all means if you want to doff your cap to these giants of the turf but I would suggest just like anyone else they sometimes get things right and they sometimes get things wrong.
Absolutely I doff my cap to them. They are legends and our game would be all the poorer if they weren’t around.
They also get far more right than they get wrong – hence their success!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Whatever people’s opinions there can be no denying the buzz of excitement created by Frankel.
It seems that on the forums after every championship race this season, the debate has got round to the merits of Frankel. Here we are on an "Arc" thread and the discussion has been more about Frankel than Danedream.
Timeform have him rated as the best since Brigadier Gerard, when interviewed many jockies and trainers almost to a man are overflowing with admiration for the horse, except it seems Hannon.
With the news that Black Caviar is likely to come over for Ascot next year to set up perhaps a mouth watering clash in the Queen Anne. There again, I would bet my last £1 if Frankel was aimed at the Prince of Wales’s all the people whinging about him being kept to a mile would then bleat on about dodging Black Caviar.
I think we should all appreciate a truly exceptional athlete, we may not see another as good for another 40 years. I can’t wait until the 15th, probably another small field, with Frankel almost certain to win and Excelebration probably second, I can’t see too many others bothering.
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