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Quote: from Wallace on 4:57 pm on Aug. 7, 2006[br]Pipe & Co will train anything if someone wants to pay them.
I’m certain there is something in the training regime that produces a lot of dodgy performers.  <br>
That is a trainers job,you mug.Btw,talking of dogs~How’s Gromit?
Although I have never seen them, I understand that they are very steep and it bottoms a horse by running up it so many times to get it hard trained as so many Pipe horses are.
This is a fallacy. The Pipe yard has two gallops (yes, I have visited the yard and, yes, I have seen them) – one is a relatively gentle slope (by comparison with, for example, Paul Nicholls’ gallops), the other is as flat as a pancake. Martin Pipe started training with a steep gallop, I believe, but that was a long time ago ..
Jilly I suggest you give Sir Mark a call and tell him you have just bought a 70 rated handicapper. He’ll tell you where to send it. Some trainers have standards.
Quote: from Wallace on 5:15 pm on Aug. 9, 2006[br]Jilly I suggest you give Sir Mark a call and tell him you have just bought a 70 rated handicapper.  He’ll tell you where to send it.  Some trainers have standards.
Aye Sir Mark wouldn’t want to start from a lofty mark like that.
I found this article on the archives of Lydia Hislop’s column and found it not only very interesting with regards to the time it was written but if anything even more so now:
<br>"Has Pipe become too reliant on Johnson?<br>It cannot be good long-term business for Pipe, or his son and successor David, to have a yard so dominated by one owner, writes Lydia Hislop <br> <br> <br>MARTIN PIPE and David Johnson are one of the most successful partnerships in racing history. They have dominated the jumping scene for the best part of a decade, farming annual titles and dominating the winner’s enclosure at every big race meeting. But, with last week’s Cheltenham Festival the bleakest microcosm of their present season, have they reached a watershed in their relationship?
You might say this is an absurd notion. Pipe has provided Johnson with five champion owner titles and nine Cheltenham Festival winners, among other laurels. Johnson’s string has contributed greatly to the latter years of Pipe’s grip on the trainers’ crown. When the past has been this bountiful, one empty-handed season does not constitute a famine.
<br> <br>However, these two men would not be as successful as they are if they refrained from uncomfortable introspection. They are surely analysing what has gone wrong and what, if anything, needs changing.
Obviously, Pipe has not suddenly become a lesser trainer. His inquiring mind changed the discipline forever in the 1980s. Yet more remarkable was the advantage he so long maintained over his rivals. But now Paul Nicholls can more than match strides â€â€Â
It’s certainly going one way at the moment. Just 2-31 in July, and his two winners from 33 in August were the unconvincing Kivotos, plus Alikat in THAT Newton Abbot race.
It’s way too early to talk of sustained crises at Pond House, of course, but isn’t it interesting to see that August, historically a month in which Pipe Snr would usually hoover up lots of small races (18 from 44 in August 2001, for example) has seen the likes of Peter Bowen, Evan Williams and Alison Thorpe clean up in his stead.
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Paul Nicholls has a set number of horses any owner can have in the stable at anyone time.<br>This was decided upon as it would cause far less hassle to the stable (and staff) if one predominate owner had a falling out or suffered a business failure and removed half the horses from the yard.<br>
Do you know how many it is, Seagull?
Surely Richard Barber through partnerships and his own horses must have had a few there at once before, as did the Stewarts surely.
Interesting post. Very good forward thinking from him, can’t be an easy thing to say to an owner when you’re building up a yard.
Johnson is not the only one who seems to have horses who have not succeeded. I honestly believe that JP McManus must feel the same way, apart from Istabraq how many champions has JP had?
JohnJ.
Quote: from Seagull on 8:34 am on Sep. 5, 2006[br]Paul Nicholls has a set number of horses any owner can have in the stable at anyone time.<br>This was decided upon as it would cause far less hassle to the stable (and staff) if one predominate owner had a falling out or suffered a business failure and removed half the horses from the yard.
<br>Now that I didn’t know! Very smart. Only have to look at the downturn in fortunes for Guesty since Paul Beck started to withdraw his interest to be reminded of the pitfalls of too many horses from one owner in the yard at once. Risk-spreading in general is something to be encouraged, I reckon.
gc<br>
(Edited by graysonscolumn at 1:48 pm on Sep. 5, 2006)
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Waht we have here is a situation in the 80’s and 90’s where Pipe bought in new horses from France who had and edge, and prepared all his horses with regime for athletes.<br>He was therefore able to clean up, and got immediate results. However other trainers have now caught up with their training methods, buying horses from other sources (many Nicholls horses like Azertyuiop came from France too) and things are now more competitive.
However, we must also look at the fact that Irish horses finished 1 2 3 in the Gold Cup and a similar story in the National.
They have kept their best horses largely due to Government help, and have used the point to point scene to bring on horses instead of flat rejects. It reinforces my belief that national Hunt racing syill depends in part for it strength on hunting. Nicholls has strength in depth because he has that. Evan Williams etc. have come through the local popint to point/hunting scene here in Wales and riders like Christian Williams and his brother Nick and Robert Stephens etc. and before Emily Jones (ladies champion)<br>Remember to date Paul Nicholls Gold Cup winner has coem direct from the Hunting and point to point scene: <br>See More Business. Then Alner had "Cool Dawn" . "Best Mate" came from the Irish point to point scene.
The best horses for the best races will come from the hunting field.
The sooner people accept that then we can get back on track. We cannot take on the Irish with ex flat racers ar rop level,  even though over hurdles there will always be Istabraqs. But chasing is a different matter. It still needs stores at top level, and a different training regime which includes hunting, dressage etc.
My feeling is that David Pipe will be looking at quality and not quantity and looking to produce horses like Lord Atterbury as potential stars.
Of course, you must leave no stone untruned in the search for horses , so there will still be the ex flat horses and European imports.
But if you write off Pipe and Johnson you will be very unwise.
My prediction is that the Irish will continue to dominate for now, with the West country hunting scene providing the basis for the stringth there. Nicholls Pipe and Hobbs ,Evan Williams and Peter Bowen , and the borders trainers, will continue to dominate. We have a healthy p2p scene, because of hunting..and that  is where the strength in depth comes from . <br>Waht was Venetia’s Williams best horse? Teeton Mill. Where did you first see him? In a thrilling race at foxhunters evening with Double Thriller. Look at Nicholls success in the foxhunters with horses like Earthmover, and Pipe with Lord Atterbury.
(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 2:45 pm on Sep. 5, 2006)
Quote: from trackside528 on 2:10 pm on Sep. 5, 2006[br]
Quote: from johnjdonoghue on 1:03 pm on Sep. 5, 2006[br]Johnson is not the only one who seems to have horses who have not succeeded. I honestly believe that JP McManus must feel the same way, apart from Istabraq how many champions has JP had?
JP’s racing organization (if you can call it that) is a complete shambles IMO… although the majority of his are at Jackdaw’s, he has far too many average horses with far too many average trainers. If you did a good turn for him in the past, you are seemingly rewarded with a horse or two…
His policy of buying failed flat horses has gone badly wrong, and the p2p scene (where he shoukld have been looking) is a very hot market nowadays, with Michael O’Leary’s Gigginstown House Stud, Archie O’Leary, Barber and many other owners creating a very compettitive market…
Make no mistake about it, JP’s a top man, but if I was him (and believe me, I wish I was), I would seriously shake up his racing structure (after sacking Frank Berry…)<br>
JP buys loads of PtoP horses and he has had a lot of good ones. Have to admit though that Frank Berry just isnt doing the job and his reputation is not as big as some other known buyers.
(Edited by SirHarryLewis at 5:03 pm on Sep. 5, 2006)
SHL
Quote: from GreenGreenDesert on 2:28 pm on Sep. 5, 2006[br]Waht we have here is a situation in the 80’s and 90’s where Pipe bought in new horses from France who had and edge, and prepared all his horses with regime for athletes.<br>He was therefore able to clean up, and got immediate results. However other trainers have now caught up with their training methods, buying horses from other sources (many Nicholls horses like Azertyuiop came from France too) and things are now more competitive.
However, we must also look at the fact that Irish horses finished 1 2 3 in the Gold Cup and a similar story in the National.
They have kept their best horses largely due to Government help, and have used the point to point scene to bring on horses instead of flat rejects. It reinforces my belief that national Hunt racing syill depends in part for it strength on hunting. Nicholls has strength in depth because he has that. Evan Williams etc. have come through the local popint to point/hunting scene here in Wales and riders like Christian Williams and his brother Nick and Robert Stephens etc. and before Emily Jones (ladies champion)<br>Remember to date Paul Nicholls Gold Cup winner has coem direct from the Hunting and point to point scene: <br>See More Business. Then Alner had "Cool Dawn" . "Best Mate" came from the Irish point to point scene.
The best horses for the best races will come from the hunting field.
The sooner people accept that then we can get back on track. We cannot take on the Irish with ex flat racers ar rop level, even though over hurdles there will always be Istabraqs. But chasing is a different matter. It still needs stores at top level, and a different training regime which includes hunting, dressage etc.
My feeling is that David Pipe will be looking at quality and not quantity and looking to produce horses like Lord Atterbury as potential stars.
Of course, you must leave no stone untruned in the search for horses , so there will still be the ex flat horses and European imports.
But if you write off Pipe and Johnson you will be very unwise.
My prediction is that the Irish will continue to dominate for now, with the West country hunting scene providing the basis for the stringth there. Nicholls Pipe and Hobbs ,Evan Williams and Peter Bowen , and the borders trainers, will continue to dominate. We have a healthy p2p scene, because of hunting..and that is where the strength in depth comes from . <br>Waht was Venetia’s Williams best horse? Teeton Mill. Where did you first see him? In a thrilling race at foxhunters evening with Double Thriller. Look at Nicholls success in the foxhunters with horses like Earthmover, and Pipe with Lord Atterbury.
(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 2:45 pm on Sep. 5, 2006)<br>
How have the government helped?? The main reason Irish horses are dominating at the moment is that there are so many of them being produced now which is making more difficult then ever before just to win a ptoint to point. The resultant rise in wastage is also shocking. DUe to the economic success of the country, horses dont have to sell across the sea anymore since there are plenty of wealthy Irish people and cash rich middle classes who are becoming part of syndicates.
SHL
In fairness to Pipe jnr. the relative decline had started before his name appeared on racecards. Other trainers have caught up with the Pipes in getting their horses fit to run. Some recent purchases out of French claimers are poor.David seems less wary of people than his Dad and badly needs to expand his ownership base and/or persuade Johnson to get the chequebook out. The latter has some excellent horses but plenty recently retired, ungenuine or slow. No sign of great investment recently from Johnson
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