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"douginho":3rglikf3 wrote:
Lets be clear here, I am not sayng I would do such a ridiculous thing if I was an owner/trainer. But, if an owner wants to run an unraced novice in a Gold Cup then why not? If anyone can give me one good reason why they shouldn’t then I am all ears. (And falling and interrupting other horses is not a reason as that can happen in any race).
Blatently putting the horse’s (and jockey) welfare at risk would have been quite an obvious one….but heck if the owner wants to do such a thing why not!
Surely Rippling Ring dropping back through the field coming down the hill in the Champion Hurdle has the potential to cause more trouble for the fancied horses than Cerium who is never likely to be in front of any horse at any stage in the Gold Cup.
I understand Nicholls’ fears that a no hope rag could hinder the chances of one of his chasers but I can imagine the outcry if a weakening Rippling Ring was to block Binocular getting a clear run down the hill in the Champion Hurdle. You can’t have it both ways Paul.
Spot on. And as Rippling Ring has performed as if there is a hole in him once the taps have been turned in his two runs to date this season, the likelihood of him coming thundering back through the field at some point is some way greater than negligible.
..,By which time, of course, whatever Wilson animal may have been entered will already be a furlong behind, wondering what all that cheering noise is on the other side of the valley. Harm caused to self or others: nil.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Peddling back at Cheltenham is surely not a problem is it? Especially when they hit the straight. Not exactly the bend at lingfield is it?
Possibly not, but can one anticipate how soon, and whereabouts, in the race / on the course the falling back through the field is likely to happen? If Rippling Ring’s tank empties on the home turn and there’s four or five behind him all trying to save space on the inner right behind him, something stands a real chance of coming off badly.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Old Quixall Crossett ran in a Tommy Whittle in a field of about 5 or 6 and completed in his own time to pick up a few hundred quid and gave his owner a day out and hospitallity and a Grade One course.
Per the Post database;
12 Dec 1998
2:45 HAYDOCK
Tommy Whittle Chase (Class A) (Grade 2)(Class 1) (5yo+) 3m Soft
£25,240.00, £9,552.00, £4,676.00, £2,132.00HORSE/SP AGE WGT TRAINER/JOCKEY OR TS RPR
1 Suny Bay (IRE) SP 4/11F
Roselier (FR) – Suny Salome (Sunyboy) 9 10-12 S E H Sherwood
G Bradley 174 163 166
Always close up, blundered 2nd, led 5th, quickened 13th, hampered bend and hard pressed approaching 3 out, stayed on well from 2 out, pushed out2 3½ Earth Summit SP 5/1
Celtic Cone – Win Green Hill (National Trust) 10 10-12 N A Twiston-Davies
T Jenks 161 160 162
Chased leaders, disputed lead from 14th, ridden and every chance 2 out, stayed on same pace flat3 30 The Grey Monk (IRE) SP 11/1
Roselier (FR) – Ballybeg Maid (Prince Hansel) 10 11-10 N G Richards
Brian Harding 157 150 163
Made most to 5th, ridden along 4 out, challenged on bit 3 out, soon ridden and beaten4 17 Lord Gyllene (NZ) SP 10/1
Ring The Bell (NZ) – Dentelle (NZ) (Crest Of The Wave) 10 10-12 S A Brookshaw
B Powell 167 126 126
Close up, every chance until ridden 13th, soon lost place and behind5 dist Quixall Crossett SP 500/1
Beverley Boy – Grange Classic (Stype Grange) 13 10-12 E M Caine
Gary Lyons 56 —
Soon well in rear, over a fence behind final circuit, well tailed offHe did not, therefore, get any prizemoney on this occasion, but in common with Haydock’s practice at the time in the hope of attracting bigger chasing fields (not a ploy that worked too often, alas), Ted Caine did get a travel allowance for every horse he entered over fences there over a period of a couple of years, including Quixall here.
Quixall’s biggest ever payday (in prizemoney terms at least), incidentally, was his 57l fourth place behind Dublin Flyer in the 1996 Peterborough Chase, which earned him £1,500 as well as bragging rights over stablemate Monaughty Man (sixth).
Further details;
http://thatracingblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/goodbye-and-slow-long-tribute-long.htmlJeremy
(graysonscolumn)Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Ripping Ring, unlike Cerium, is young, fit and able
The “fit” part of that is a moot point based on his capitulations this season, arguably?
Moreover, isn’t a greater risk posed in championship races to both individual horses, and those around them, by them not being prepped-raced, or at the very least schooled at home, over a course with comparable topography to Cheltenham?
It’s nothing I’ve done a formal trend analysis on, and I’m not prepared to pretend it’s a watertight hypothesis just on the example of the ill-starred Granit Jack. However, it doesn’t seem too far-fetched to me to suggest that if a horse (and I would be thinking largely, but not solely, about French imports) has run exclusively around flat courses such as Auteuil, Enghien, Newbury, Aintreee, Haydock, etc., then to give it its first experience of a track with pronounced undulations and downhill fences in a Championship race, at Championship pace, around Prestbury Park, is at least risky and at worst a tad more irresponsible than letting a slowpoke take its chance.
I believe that Nicky Henderson has a simulation of the Old Course’s downhill run (from the top of the hill) on his gallops, replete with fences. If clearly logistically difficult / impossible to make compulsory, it still nonetheless rates the sort of innovation I’d certainly like to see any trainers of Festival aspirants consider implementing as a matter of course.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
From memory most, if not all, of those outclassed in either the Ch Hurdle or Gold Cup are usually trailing very early on.
Exactly. If ever a rag were going to get tailed off nice and early, it’s at chelts.
Peddling back at Cheltenham is surely not a problem is it? Especially when they hit the straight. Not exactly the bend at lingfield is it?
Possibly not, but can one anticipate how soon, and whereabouts, in the race / on the course the falling back through the field is likely to happen? If Rippling Ring’s tank empties on the home turn and there’s four or five behind him all trying to save space on the inner right behind him, something stands a real chance of coming off badly.
gc
In fairness, this is just one of many possible bad luck scenarios that occur in NH races. We could ask ‘what if’ in every race.
Did one not get hit by a ‘clod’ of earth once, before tailing itself off?
Old Quixall Crossett ran in a Tommy Whittle in a field of about 5 or 6 and completed in his own time to pick up a few hundred quid and gave his owner a day out and hospitallity and a Grade One course.
Per the Post database;
12 Dec 1998
2:45 HAYDOCK
Tommy Whittle Chase (Class A) (Grade 2)(Class 1) (5yo+) 3m Soft
£25,240.00, £9,552.00, £4,676.00, £2,132.00HORSE/SP AGE WGT TRAINER/JOCKEY OR TS RPR
1 Suny Bay (IRE) SP 4/11F
Roselier (FR) – Suny Salome (Sunyboy) 9 10-12 S E H Sherwood
G Bradley 174 163 166
Always close up, blundered 2nd, led 5th, quickened 13th, hampered bend and hard pressed approaching 3 out, stayed on well from 2 out, pushed out2 3½ Earth Summit SP 5/1
Celtic Cone – Win Green Hill (National Trust) 10 10-12 N A Twiston-Davies
T Jenks 161 160 162
Chased leaders, disputed lead from 14th, ridden and every chance 2 out, stayed on same pace flat3 30 The Grey Monk (IRE) SP 11/1
Roselier (FR) – Ballybeg Maid (Prince Hansel) 10 11-10 N G Richards
Brian Harding 157 150 163
Made most to 5th, ridden along 4 out, challenged on bit 3 out, soon ridden and beaten4 17 Lord Gyllene (NZ) SP 10/1
Ring The Bell (NZ) – Dentelle (NZ) (Crest Of The Wave) 10 10-12 S A Brookshaw
B Powell 167 126 126
Close up, every chance until ridden 13th, soon lost place and behind5 dist Quixall Crossett SP 500/1
Beverley Boy – Grange Classic (Stype Grange) 13 10-12 E M Caine
Gary Lyons 56 —
Soon well in rear, over a fence behind final circuit, well tailed offHe did not, therefore, get any prizemoney on this occasion, but in common with Haydock’s practice at the time in the hope of attracting bigger chasing fields (not a ploy that worked too often, alas), Ted Caine did get a travel allowance for every horse he entered over fences there over a period of a couple of years, including Quixall here.
Quixall’s biggest ever payday (in prizemoney terms at least), incidentally, was his 57l fourth place behind Dublin Flyer in the 1996 Peterborough Chase, which earned him £1,500 as well as bragging rights over stablemate Monaughty Man (sixth).
Further details;
http://thatracingblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/goodbye-and-slow-long-tribute-long.htmlJeremy
(graysonscolumn)For the record:
Win Green Hill was a truly remarkable broodmare, whose greatest achievement (outside of Earth Summit) was making Happy Jack happy.
Secondly, Monaughty Man really was pants, wasn’t he?
I remember See More Business going off the course in the Gold Cup.Cyborgo was the culprit.Can anyone remember Cyborgo’s S.P. or O.R. ?
If you go to back a certainty always buy a return ticket.
I understand Paul Nicholls being unhappy with the new connections of Cerium. Let’s not forget, Cerium was a useful handicapper not so long ago, but he completely lost his way and was last seen pulling up with "an irregular heartbeat" as the excuse.
The horse is a light of former days and Nicholls would know how much Cerium has deteriorated. I imagine he advised the previous owner to retire him. No wonder he’s angry to see the poor thing humiliated in the Gold Cup (and probably Champion Hurdle, Scottish National and Topham too).
Paul Nicholls seems to care about his horses even after they leave his care. He slated Oliver Carter over Venn Ottery.
Can’t have that I’m afraid – if Nicholls was that concerned that Cerium should be retired and not run again, he should have strongly advised Stewart to have his passport stamped at Weatherby’s so he couldn’t run again. It costs all of about £40. But no, then they wouldn’t have got 18k selling him at Donny if he couldn’t race. They seem to want to have their cake and eat it.
- Total Posts 17716
I’m sure Azertyuiop might have something to say about how much Nicholls cares for his horses. I guess it just depends how much money is on the line at the time.
they did think that Cyborgo had broken down badly at the time; suspected broken pelvis I think….
Don’t think Cerium was owned by Andy Stewart but that’s by the by.
As you say they had the option to retire the horse but decided to take a few quid instead.
It’s a shame that the Wilson’s keep buying these horses that are well past their best but just high enough rated to run in the Championship races.
I could have understood them maybe doing it as a one off to have a runner in these races but to do it year in year out is a waste of time and I can’t believe it can be an enjoyable experience.
At his best Cerium (like Contrababnd) was a very decent horse and to see him tailed off after two fences will not be a pleasant sight.
We had our day at Cheltenham with Pete the Parson to experience what ownership was like at the course but in future I think it would only fair to go with a horse that at least deserved to be in the field or had a chance in a small field of picking up prize money for getting round.
For those who aren’t aware Win Green Hill was the dam of the first syndicate horse I was involved in through the forum Maisey Down,where many long lasting friendships were built up even though we had no luck with her on the racecourse.
they did think that Cyborgo had broken down badly at the time; suspected broken pelvis I think….
Exactly – it was hardly a case of a horse being pulled up rather than jump the fence. Anything coming from Nicholls was just sour grapes. Remember that the Pipe horse (Indian Tracker/Indian Tonic?) was also taken out by Cyborgo at that fence. Cyborgo (a previous Festival winner) was more than useful in his own right.
Cloigeann Rua (I can’t spell) has to be my favourite of the Caine horses if only for her unpronounceable name
Cloigeann Rua (I can’t spell) has to be my favourite of the Caine horses if only for her unpronounceable name
She had many aliases to circumvent having to pronounce her full name. "Cloggy Rua" and "Red" were the most kind, "Cloggy Fridge" (when she was big, she was elephantine) the least.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Monaughty Man really was pants, wasn’t he?
I ain’t bitin’!
(…except to say that he did gain a win for the Caines in taking an Ayr maiden hunters’ chase in March 1995 and subsequently finished a staying-on seventh in that year’s Aintree Foxhunters, before injury blunted him completely).
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
I remember See More Business going off the course in the Gold Cup.Cyborgo was the culprit.Can anyone remember Cyborgo’s S.P. or O.R. ?
Cyborgo (Pipe, McCoy, 10-1) – prominent until pulled up lame 7th
Indian Tracker (Pipe, Lower, 150-1) – prominent until carried out 7th
See More Business (Nicholls, Murphy, 11-2) – held up, headway 5th, carried out 7thgc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
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