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16 times in 6 months is nothing for a sprinter. Look at Transfixed last night having her 50th run in about 16 months.
How do you know how the poor horse is feeling, a bit like a horse having to. Compete on the national, I disagree with that aswell, but that’s a separate argument.
… er, Matthew … if you don’t mind me saying, I think you’ve just contradicted your own argument …
"How do you know how the poor horse is feeling" ? … that’s exactly the point … you don’t and I don’t … he probably loves his racing and would sulk like hell if left to kick his heels in his box.
Just my opinion, but I think the trainer and stable staff are probably best placed to make that judgement, don’t you ?
Yeah definitely but you don’t see the bigger yards keeping turning horses out very quickly after they’ve run, maybe because they are better horses and are reserved for bigger prizes and higher class races.
It’s an argument difficult to solve tbh.
Sorry to disagree Bluechariot and Burrough Hill Lad, and I do respect your opinions, but you do not see a sprinter from the yards of O’Brien, Stoute, and Cecil running that often (even the less talented inmates) – and there is a reason for that
… the reason being what, Coggy ? … that the Stoutes, O’Brien’s and Cecil’s of this world are more concerned with horse welfare than the likes of Richard Guest ?
Understand where you’re coming from but it’s a flimsy argument … for example, look how many of O’Brien’s horses find their way to smaller yards over time and fail to replicate anything like their previous form … why is that ?
Is it simply because O’Brien is a much better trainer and gets more out of them … or is it that they’ve been too highly tried and had the stuffing knocked out of them ?
All supposition to be honest but if you believe over racing a horse such as Dickie Le Davoir is an issue then I suggest you take it up with the authorities.
The whole raison d’etre for a horse is to run it’s what they basically do most of these sprinters in particular train on the racecourse which means they don’t do daily stints at home just turned out for a good roll and a trot round the paddock as per Dandy Nicholls, Ruth Carr, Chapman, Bradley, Sir Mark Prescott etc and very successful at it too as it keeps them fresh and interested
If that is the best way to train a sprinter then why don’t top trainers use it to train champion sprinters. Simple answer imho is that they don’t because it isn’t
Blood tests, how the horse eats, weight gain/loss. Just a few things how a trainer knows if a horse is ok or not.
I think I’d leave this game for ever if in this day and age a trainer ran his horse knowing the horse wasn’t feeling up to it, because that would be just cruel.
Let’s just trust the trainers on this one. Didn’t think I’d ever say that lol.
It’s entirely down to the horse – some love racing, some go best fresh.
One I owned, Salute, ran 18 times in 2006, mostly over 2M. It plainly did him no harm as he won the last two in December and then came out first time in 2007 after three months off and won again.
O’Brien isn’t averse to running horses frequently either – two of his lesser lights have run ten times in the last four months in Ireland.
AP
Do we not think that Messr’s Stoute / O’Brien are operating in slightly different spheres than 60-odd rated-Dickie’s trainer?
What a ludicrous arguement.
Going back to the ride Paul Eddery give Dickie, having just seen it for the first time, I honestly don’t think the jockey did anything wrong.
Obviously this depends on whether you take the view that the horse missed the break deliberately or accidently. If you thing Eddery deliberately missed the kick then true, he perhaps over-cooked it and gave the horse far too much to do.
But if the horse was just slow to bounce, then Eddery did nothing wrong at all. This horse usually travels well on the bridle and finds little off it, so having missed the kick, Eddery did the correct thing by taking it to the favoured rail and let the horse travel. If he’d have asked the horse to close sooner it wouldn’t have reached the frame. The horse was never going to catch the winner and second place was the best possible position this horse could achieve from a long way out.
"Coggy" Said
If that is the best way to train a sprinter then why don’t top trainers use it to train champion sprinters. Simple answer imho is that they don’t because it isn’t
So Dandy Nicholls doesn’t train any top sprinters? There’s also the little matter of suitable races for them there’s plenty F and E rated races not so many Group, A and B classes
Kent – I take your point about the number of top quality sprint races, and also that Nicholls has trained some top class sprinters. If you re-read my post it stated "champion" not top.
Peruvian chief – thanks for your helpful critique on my post, however we are all entitled to our opinions , sad that you seem to find it ludicrous. If you check the handicap ratings you will find that sometimes even Messrs Cecil and Stoute have to deal with animals rated in the 60s. 2 recent animals that spring to mind are Tymora of Mr Cecils, and Top Tigress of Mr Stoutes. You will note that neither of the great trainers has responded by running them imo an excessive amount of times
Are you serious? Your cherry-picked examples are hardly Dickie’s equivalent -they are exceptionally well-bred animals, owned by bloodstock-driven organisations not known for being short of a few quid. They are both lightly raced three year olds, who if they carry on in their dissapointing ways, will not be running very long for their current connections.
You are comparing apples with oranges here comparing Guest with Stoute/O’Brien/Cecil, and you are well out of order to question Dickie’s connections treatment of the horse. It appears from your outrageous comparison that you don’t know enough about it to be criticising them, all in my opinion of course.
Peruvian Chief
You are entitled to your opinion but please don.t be so rude as to question my knowledge
To address a couple of your points – how is it relevant about how well bred the animals are – it is the frequency with which they are being ran that is the question in point
You say that my highlighted horses are owned by bloodstock driven organisations – really – Top Tigress is owned by Mrs Denis Haynes !
If you want a few more examples then look at the following who spring to mind having run off marks in the 60s
Silk and Satin, and Mayolyn of Mr Cecils, Astral Flower and Magnificence of Mr Stoutes, and even Andantino and Waltz of Mr O’Brien.
The only thing that you are correct about, imho, is that they won’t occupy boxes in these yards much longer unless they start to show more.
The reason that these great trainers are in a position to choose not to train poor quality performers is simply due to supply and demand i.e. their services are in demand because of demonstrable and ongoing excellence in how they train their horsesThe point is these animals are not being aimed long term to race in 60-odd handicaps. They are campaigned accordingly.
For you to question a horses connections, a horse who appears to thrive on racing, and base your arguement on Stout/Cecil/O’Brien’s handling of their horses is plain wrong. The horse is fit and well, and is giving his connections a fun time, one which they will be paying plenty to enjoy, so get off your high horse.
- Total Posts 17716
The reason that these great trainers are in a position to choose not to train poor quality performers is simply due to supply and demand i.e. their services are in demand because of demonstrable and ongoing excellence in how they train their horses
You’ve made precisely the right point: and the reason "these great trainers" don’t run their animals 20 times a season is to give them the best chance to show what potential they have – once they’ve been given that chance, and not come up to snuff, off they go to the treadmills of the "lesser yards" where they’ll have to work damned hard for their hay.
You have no evidence whatsoever that running these lower-grade sprinters so often is in any way unkind or detrimental to their health, and your assertions have no interest (or any more sting than a dead gnat’s hindquarters) until you provide some hard facts.
Despite not agreeing with Coggy’s assertion, he has my respect for being thoughtful and sincere enough to be expressing concern about horse welfare.
K- Total Posts 17716
Despite not agreeing with Coggy’s assertion, he has my respect for being thoughtful and sincere enough to be expressing concern about horse welfare.
I’m afraid I can’t agree that mere "sincerity" gives anyone the right to peddle unsubstantiated tosh. I’m quite sure that Flat Earthers are absolutely sincere in their beliefs, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t challenge what they say.
As for "expressing concern about horse welfare" … that falls right into the Mom and Apple Pie box. Who’s going to argue against it? But if I expressed concern that we should pay 1p in the £ betting tax to buy every horse a tartan blanket, I wouldn’t expect people to resist lobbing the rotten tomatoes.
The Coggy sort of "sincerity" would put Hughie Green on the same pedestal as Mahatma Ghandi.
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