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Non Trier

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  • #11559
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    Good old fist! sttod up against half the forum and said l’ami wasn’t stopped when beaten by Garge Champetre. Fefended Davy Russel, Ryan Moore Ruby Walsh etc etc.

    They said I defend jockeys too much well now it’s my turn.

    The race: the 2.50 Goodwood. The jockey: Alan Munro the horse: Special Reserve.

    I had no bet I was just cruising around watching today’s races.

    I could not believe my eyes. Munro gave this horse no chance and further more it was deliberate.

    I await your comments.

    BTW if you haven’t watched the race don’t post.

    #231139
    davidjohnson
    Member
    • Total Posts 4491

    Have a look at Special Reserve’s other races and note his response to pressure.It was ridden by Richard Hughes btw.

    #231152
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    Apologies to Alan Munro.

    I just read the race report who seldom add litle digs but here you go.

    "held up behind, travelling well when not clear run over 1f out, stayed on final furlong, never a threat opened 8/1"

    I’ll say he was travelling well and the pressure applied by Hughes amounted to nil. If that horse was off I’m a Dutchman. Not only did he hold the horse up too long he shoved it up the backside of another horse to stop him going. He made half an effort to make up ground when the race was well and truly over.

    I was a Steward I would have served a ban on him without hesitation.

    #231153
    robnorth
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6212

    BTW if you haven’t watched the race don’t post.

    Pardon me for having the nerve to post without watching the race, but I am at least capable of noting that Alan Munro was riding at Haydock and not Goodwood.

    (watches race recording)

    He ran just like a horse that needs tucking away quietly and brought through the field to challenge on the bridle. He needed a gap over two furlongs out, didn’t get it and from that point he had no chance of getting to leaders who had a got a jump on the field.

    One key statistic worth noting is that Special Reserve is clearly a horse with ability yet only one win to show for 16 runs, and siginificantly 7 seconds. Note too his comment from the race he won at Nottingham

    ‘Steadied start, held up off the pace in midfield, headway to track leaders going well over 2f out, challenged entering final furlong, shaken up to lead inside final furlong, pushed out’

    Ridden in a similar fashion to today but things fell for him on that occasion, and a key point is that the race won was

    0-80

    , today’s was

    86-100

    a whole ’10 lengths classier’.

    In retrospect Richard Hughes may have ridden the section of the race from the home turn to 2 furlongs out different, but ultimately this was a horse who needs riding very carefully and upped in class. The race ahd to be run completely to suit and it wasn’t.

    Now you could say maybe the horse should be aimed slightly lower, maybe a 0-90, but then that’s another argument entirely involving factors like the right opportunities, the right course, going and a stack of other variables.

    Rob

    #231159
    robnorth
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6212

    The RP Analysis write clearly saw it the same way

    ‘Special Reserve was continually denied a clear run up the straight and shaped as though he could have finished a lot closer had the gaps arrived earlier. He wasn´t knocked about in a lost cause, but he has a poor strike-rate and is not one to go overboard about.’

    #231166
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    In Fist’s defence I didn’t think Alan Munro was particularly clever on Royal Rock at Haydock (I don’t rate him in the slightest anyway, but he was poor today), but any criticism of Special Reserve’s performances should be aimed at the horse. It’s unusual for me to defend Richard Hughes, and I haven’t seen the race in question, but he’s ‘avoided’ running on on more than one occasion and has to have a questionable attitude.

    Besides, Hughesy rode a screamer on Fremont so he was clearly in one of his better moods.

    #231227
    douginho
    Member
    • Total Posts 1046

    I think Special Reserve has to be ridden this way and its worth noting the first 3 home had raced a lot more handily than Special Reserve. The early pace in the race didn’t help Special Reserve. Usually his best runs come at Windsor where races tend to be run faster for the first few furlongs into the bottom turn. I think this is a case where you cant look at the goodwood race in isolation. If you look at this race without prior knowledge of the horse then you can see Fists point. On the other hand, many of us know Special Reerve "is a monkey" and so you back it knowing its a likely scenario that he’ll travel well and find nothing when asked.

    #231233
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    I aready rectified my mistake between Alan and Richard Hughes so I do’t know why you guys have to prattle on about that.

    Throwing past races and upped in class at me won’t change my mind either Rob. That’s what handicaps are for to give all horses an equal chance.

    You say he could have rudden the horse differently fom the turn for home. I’ll say he could have.

    The race had really started in earnest approching the 2 furlong marker and there was a huge gap in front of him. He waitied until after the 2f marker and as the gap closes closed he runs his horse right up their backsides when even a claimer would have had the sense to have gone to the outer.

    So either he’s as blind as a bat and didn’t see the two horse coming together or it was deliberate.

    By the time he does pull the horse to the outer he passes 6 without any encouragemment bar a bit of hands and heels. Had he gone earlier he may well have run into other trouble as it was a right race but If he would have at least made some sort effort to make a forward move when he could have I wouldn’t be posting.

    #231242
    robnorth
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6212

    Throwing past races and upped in class at me won’t change my mind either Rob. That’s what handicaps are for to give all horses an equal chance.

    Fist

    I think you are well of the mark with that comment. Past races will tell you a horse’s character and it will tell how it is best raced. You claim past race don’t make a difference, so do you ever read a horse’s form, and if so why? The horse was up two grades in handicap and ultimately class tells, it’s been the basis of my betting for years and will continue to be so. That doesn’t mean horses can’t compete in the higher grade but you have to have a horse capable of being upped in grade and quirky ones are the ones to oppose.

    Regardless of all that if you want to run a hold up horse as a ‘non-trier’ the way to do it is to run from the front, not to use its normal ‘trying’ tactics! A mile tanking along in front would likely have seen Special Reserve well in arrears by the end, not staying on. The reason he used ‘hands and heels’ is because there is a stack of evidence which suggests Special Reserve resents the whip, but I suppose that doesn’t suit your case.

    Richard Hughes’ performance may well have been a misjudged race, and there’s a pretty fair chance that Hughes would admit that he would do things a little differently. On a horse that from analysis of its past efforts is blatant quirky it’s insulting to put forward the slur that Hughes wasn’t trying. If you would be prepared to say that to Richard Hughes’ face then fine, but I doubt you would, and I know the type of answer you would get.

    As we seem to be polls apart on this one I’ll leave you to it. However, I’ll just make one request. Please bet in the same races as I do, because if I back a loser I look to see where I have gone wrong, but it would appear that your attitude is blame everyone under the sun but yourself. I wouldn’t mind betting which one of us is more likely to show in fornt in the long term.

    By the way, if ever you are at a meeting in Scotland let me know because I’m only too happy to back up my case face to face.

    Rob

    #231252
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    You sound like me when I am defending a jockey.

    I never had a brass penny on the race I was watching it through interest and for no other reason. You ask if I read form. Well I ask you do you read posts?

    I have been looking back at his races and the first thing I noticed is the mess he got into on the horse at Donny when 4th to Timetable. He made a total balls of that overdoing the hold up tactics. He seemed totally unaware that Timetable had gone for home and it was time to move. His chance of winning had gone at that point. When he did make his move again he ran straight into trouble which cost the horse at least one place.

    Yesterday looked to me like he was deliberatly sticking the horse up the backside of the two in front when they began to close. Let’s just agree and say he was, not in an attempt to stop the horse but to keep him covered up as much as possible.

    If that was the case it was a shocking ride as he’s completely overdone it and got himslef into a right pickle again. He seems to have totally misjudged the pace of the race again and robbed the horse of any chance he had.

    So let’s agree he never stopped it but can we agree he’s a complete plonker?.

    #231253
    robnorth
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6212

    So let’s agree he never stopped it but can we agree he’s a complete plonker?.

    No, we can’t. He made a mistake at work pure and simple, just like you and I will make mistakes at work, however good we are our jobs. I have never said that jockeys don’t make mistakes, it’s just that the better ones make less mistakes. With 545 winners at 15% from 2005 onwards, I would suggest to you that Richard Hughes makes a good deal less mistakes than the majority of jockeys.

    In my opinion the suggestion that he ‘deliberately sticking the horse up the backside of the two in front’ is not true. By doing that one thing he would be doing is putting himself in danger of clipping the horse or horses in front and he would have to be would be putting himself in danger which makes no sense. If anything you would expect him to drop off if two horses close in front, however that make effect his chance in the race. In such circumstances, it’s safety first then ‘what can I do about it?’

    Rob

    #231256
    Onthesteal
    Member
    • Total Posts 1387

    Surely, only the masochistic and self-harming amongst us would consider backing Hughes or the other bloke on a hold up horse?

    Hughes is a fantastic horseman, no question, but simply waiting for the sea to part as he did here is hardly worth the journey to the course and is a wasted outing IMO.

    #231265
    robnorth
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6212

    Granted, but with some horses there just isn’t any other way of riding them.

    #231280
    Smithy
    Member
    • Total Posts 720

    1.29, 1.16, 1.51, 1.05, 1.14

    All prices matched about the lovable Special Reserve in running last season without him consenting to put his head in front.

    #231316
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    Granted, but with some horses there just isn’t any other way of riding them.

    I think that’s half the problem with this horse is that connections have got it into their heads he has to be dropped out the back door plus Hughes is overdoing the waiting tactics on him. I have seen him do the same thing twice now and cost the horse many lengths.

    In the latest, the way I saw it. he had a gap you could have driven a bus through and at the time there was a gap, the race had already started in earnest with everyone hard at work except him.

    He just sat there with time running out and when the gap began to close he rode the horse straight up the backside of the horse on the right of the two horses in front of him and took a pull. He lost all chance the horse had by not moving up between the two when he could have IMO.

    The fact he’s on a horse who travels well and has a turn of foot albeit somewhat limited why drop him back 10-15 lengths behind the leaders.
    I can never understand that logic on the flat. It more often than not leads to horses getting into traffic trouble. You can just as easily cover a horse up and get him realxed lying in 5th or 6th and still be gauanteed something is going to carry you into the final furlong.

    One things for sure what they are doing isn’t working and no matter how many winners he has ridden it won’t if Hughes keeps giving him rides like the one yesterday and the one at Donny.

    #231322
    Ken(West Derby)
    Member
    • Total Posts 1063

    I am not a Hughes fan, whatsoever. He is a brilliant horseman and has no equals in being able to cleverly conceal a horse’s true ability. Tactically, he can lose from the front or from the back, whatever way he chooses. If you want your horse boxed-in at the crucial point in a race, Richard’s your man. When you hear the commentator say your horse is "in the van" you can rest assured that if Dickie is riding, it’s a box van!
    But then again, just when you and I least expect it, up pops Hughsie riding a winner for dear old pop-in-law. What are families for, I ask myself, time and time again? The solution – just steer clear of races where Hughes is riding. Zero tolerance of the will he, won’t he syndrome?

    #231384
    robnorth
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6212

    Fist

    You will be very interested to read the BHA Stewards’ Enquiry Report regarding Special Reserve:

    ‘The Stewards held an enquiry into the running and riding of SPECIAL RESERVE (IRE), ridden by RICHARD HUGHES and trained by R HANNON, which was behind early in the race before staying on in the final furlong to finish sixth of thirteen, beaten six and a half lengths. The Stewards interviewed the rider, who stated that his instructions were to ride him as he had done on his last three runs, which was to drop the colt in and try and arrive in a challenging position on the bridle. He added that the race was slower run than he had anticipated and from two furlongs out when he wanted to deliver a challenge he failed to get a clear run. Having heard his evidence, viewed video recordings of the race, and having received a report from the Veterinary Officer and observations from the Handicapper, the Stewards noted his explanations.’

    I believe that the last phrase is generally taken to mean "we don’t believe you but we can’t prove it". A suggestion that the Stewards were somewhere near your own opinion.

    Rob

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