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Rusty Rails, those were my thoughts initially but I think the BHA have done the right thing by keeping it simple based on the premise that the trainer and vet ought to decide what op will be most beneficial to the horse. They won’t always be right, but, from what I’ve read about wind issues over the past 48 hours, I cannot think of a better system.
RustyRails, I know what you are saying, but if a horse needs a procedure, it needs a procedure, otherwise they wouldn’t do it. One assumes that it applies to all horses that have run in GB, so it will cover a lot of Irish (particularly) and French runners too, and that means a lot of stallion/broodmare prospects. I agree, Titus, I think NH racing will be the real eye opener. On the Flat, you might also see some high class 2yo that lose their form as 3yo unexpectedly retire when they apparently have so much …oh hold on….
Anyone else think it’s a crying shame that horses’ larynxes are collapsing enough to affect athletic function at such a young age? It’s one thing for an older horse to have the nerve supply degenerate to the point of needing surgery, especially after many seasons’ training and the great demands made on the structure over a prolonged period of time; but Sprinter Sacre had his surgery after the Supreme, his 6th ever start.
You don’t see really big horses in the wild much- mustangs and brumbies are mostly about 15 hands or so. Presumably because they need fewer calories to sustain them. But man’s upsizing of horses that Nature never intended has its drawbacks. As does extreme downsizing- those miniature horses you see shuffling around show rings have dreadful teeth and kneecaps all over the place- much like miniature dogs in fact. Nature- evolution- abhors extremes of each species as much as mankind adores them.I imagine once the system gets going then further info on each individual operation will be given by the Racing Post ( or easily found elsewhere on the day )
They will undoubtedly have a section on the Signposts page.I’m amazed at the backlash to the wind op announcement by some. The joke that punters will be asking for their underwear to be changed really, spectacularly misses the point and isn’t even funny.
Some punters have argued that the bookmakers will now be able to shorten the odds of those horses whose trainers run well after a wind op, thus said punter will lose their advantage.
This is for the good of the sport and would have also met the approval of President Lincoln. It will please most of the people most of the time.
I’m amused at the patronising attitude of a lot them, lost count of the ones who’ve said it’ll confuse punters as
– “there are different types of wind ops” (yes we know)
– ” they don’t always work” (yes we know that too
– and in general “it won’t be as useful for punters as they think” (we’ll be the judge of that, thanks)Wind ops been very badly handled. Not sure BHA shouldn’t take some blame. Trainer Jim Boyle and ATR tipster Hugh Taylor were kind enough to contribute to my blog on this:
https://lazybet.com/2017/11/23/the-trainer-the-tipster-and-the-wind-ops/
I don’t understand the handwringing over the lack of 2 years’ worth of data collection and the tender concern that punters may be risking their hard earned on the results of a procedure that may not work. Why so keen on evidence based medicine all of a sudden? Were they so concerned when the scalpel was hovering over their horses’ throats to enquire whether the risk of aspiration pneumonia was one worth taking? Do they care more about the risk to punters’ pockets than the long term health of their horses’ lungs?
The point about policing is a good one. You could tell from a scope whether a horse had a tieback or, I think a Hobday. I don’t think you could prove that a soft palate had been trimmed. But that would apply whether the horse is Irish or English.
As far as the “different types of wind ops” is concerned- well, we’ll take our chance. After all, tongue ties are declared but what is to stop connections putting on a really slack tie that’s doing nothing for a few runs, letting the handicap mark stay put till the odds lengthen again, then putting the tie on tight enough and sticking the money on?
Does anyone know if Ballybolley has worn earplugs for all recent starts ? For the two wins it is mentioned in the Racing Post comments ( “ Wore earplugs, settled in midfield..” ) but not for the defeats.
A while back on this thread we were discussing the very same issue – and I (somewhat rashly!) offered to wade through a considerable set of online sales catalogues, listing horses for sale that were declared as having had wind procedures, the procedures they’d had (and their breeding). The data I have is for Tattersalls HiT July/October Sales (2009-16) and Goffs (2012-15) & Tatts Ireland (2009-16). So, the first set is predominantly flat horses; the second NH.
Looking back at that data in the light of the BHA’s recent decision, it’s clear that several horses have had more than one procedure. There are 208 horses listed as having had wind procedures in the July/October Sales data, and 134 in the Goffs & Tatts Ireland catalogues. Unfortunately, at the time, I didn’t record the % of horses listed as having had wind procedures against the overall total of lots offered. So I don’t know what proportion of horses offered at the HiT Sales have had wind ops, but ‘there you go!’ What I can say is that, of the 208 flat horses, 60 are recorded as having had a soft-palate operation, and 58 the much more aggressive hobday operation – ~28% in both cases. By contrast, in the NH sales data 54 (40%) have had a soft palate op) whilst 78 (58%) have been hobdayed. If – as appears to be the case – some horses are having multiple wind ops over time then it seems reasonable to lump these together as ‘WS’.
Again, looking back at this data, it is obvious why there is so much opposition to the BHA decision from parts of the bloodstock industry. As well as the stallion owners, who stand to lose a lot, there are some mares with multiple offspring who have had wind ops. Some of these would not normally have progeny going through the yearling sales. Nonetheless, one can see how this kind of data could devalue stock from certain families.
On the Ireland/France issue: assume Horse X (trained in Ireland or France) has a wind procedure. As I understand how the rules will operate, if that horse is then entered to race in Britain then the trainer has to declare ‘WS’. But, if the horse is not declared to race in Britain but races say exclusively in Ireland (or France), then that WS does not need to be declared. Horse X could even be campaigned in North America (for example) and still not be declared as having had ‘WS’. For those interested in the breeding angles on this, it may well pay to pay careful attention to which horses are being campaigned where.
I wonder if the rules take account of a mistaken declaration of WS when, in fact, the horse has not had surgery?
As far as Irish Flat horses are concerned- the best race at least once in the UK anyway. Anything which wins Irish Group 1s but never goes across the water will stick out like a sore thumb.
Irish NH stallions- thanks to Cheltenham fever, if a horse doesn’t have many progeny turning up at the Festival then nobody’s interested.
It will be interesting to see if Irish racing follows suit with WS declarations. I hope so. Irish NH horses get sold to England; French breds to Ireland and England. If they find that French horses that can breathe for themselves are pushed towards England while the ones that can’t, or are genetically unlikely to, get pushed towards Ireland to preserve the reputation of French breeding stock, then they might find that adopting the new rules helps matters.
But I suppose economically the sale of Irish NH horses to England is dwarfed by the sale of Coolmore stallion nominations. And so The Lads will probably get to dictate policy. Irish punters will be no match for the bloodstock industry here I feel.
I didn’t see the Irish Field yet, Greenasgrass, but the headlines on the website yesterday suggested that it was business as usual for them: ‘no problem here, move along and mind your own business…’ Regarding the size of horses, I have wondered about this and heart problems/sudden deaths too. It would be interesting to see a proper study done, because perception can be misleading, but some of those famous big horses that had wind ops also had heart issues (surely not beyond the realms of possibility that the two are connected, since one relies on the other). I know our vet thinks big horses have more wind problems, and he does operate, so knows the score.
Disappointing – if predictable – response from the IF there, Louise. It will be interesting to see how long they can peddle that line in the face of evidence.
Greenasgrass – I agree that up to now the majority of top Irish flat horses would race in England at least once. That is a function of the cache of certain races (especially the Derby, Eclipse, Sussex and International) in the stallion-making business – at least historically. What I am wondering, though, is whether the new regulation, combined with the increasingly international programme for racing top class horses (colts particularly), will lead to slightly different campaigns – ones where not racing in England can be explained away. So, a 3yo programme aimed at say Kentucky and the Breeders Cup. Or, where the Irish Champion takes precedence as the 10f target. Alternatively, as Louise has said, you can see others being packed off to stud after their 2yo career (when not all come over).
On a slightly different tack (albeit potentially related, given that wind issues are inherited), the RP carried this heart-warming story yesterday.
Something that I would like to see is others taking the same punt with sons of say Presenting, Shantou, Flemensfirth, Robin des Champs, Robin des Pres …
Historically, NH breeding has relied on the diversity of lines of staying horses to produce the NH horses of the future. When pretty much all the runners in the Derby and St Leger are from multiple crosses of ND and Mr P (as they are now) then that diversity is non-existent. Projecting forwards, NH horses will increasingly be bred from the less good versions of that multiple cross. It is surely time for breeders to recognise this situation, and to act while there is still time to hold onto the genes of these proven jumping sires? Potentially, this is even a role for the two National Studs.
What a great story about the Midnight Legend colt, Titus. Perhaps others will feel inspired – completely agree with you on the National Studs too. Ellen Parker has said similar on her site, and we hardly need more of the same stacking up there. Disappointingly, when it comes to NH stallions, the INS seems to go for cast offs (Pilsudski, Famous Name) – what if they had given Nickname a home, for example?
Disappointed in the RTE coverage today (wouldn’t have happened with Robert Hall around). They put up the breeding of Road to Respect, and said the mare had also produced Road to Riches. In fact they are out of a mother and daughter. Not such a big deal, but then they start dissing Gamut (the sire), and saying what a great mare (in fact two mares) she was to produce those two horses by Gamut. Actually, both mares also visited Old Vic more than they visited Gamut (who stood at the same stud at one time), as well as other sires, yet produced nothing of note. At a time when we are seeing fatalities week in and out of flat bred horses in the jumping game, with pedigrees loaded with Northern Dancer and Mr Prospector blood, should we not be celebrating the kind of diversity that we used to see much more often, and which has given us great chasers past and present?
I noticed just how light and narrow some of the novices were at Kempton on Boxing Day and the day after, I checked the pedigrees and they were NH bred not flat. It seems that the stallions available are beginning to lack substance.
Louise12 makes a good point about the inbreeding adding to unsoundness and fatalities. It was rare for a horse’s leg to just snap in between jumps, NH fatalities were usually falls, now legs snap nearly every day.
There should be a premium offered for breeders to avoid multiple Northern Dancer lines.
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