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If they changed the name from Fixed Odds Betting Terminals to Guaranteed Losing Terminals (which is precisely what they are) do you think that would be fair?
[ You’re hell bent on annoying everyone Prof.
I think Drone’s point is that an FOBTs is not a machine for "betting" in the same way as horse racing or sports betting. In that "bookmaking" is thought of as betting on something that a knowledgeable punter has a chance of making a profit.No matter how knowledgeable a punter is about FOBTs, he can’t change his chance of making a profit.
No annoyance here Ginger, my convoluted prose did indeed convey no more than an obvious truism, but thanks for springing to my defence anyway…dear boy that you are
I’m essentially a libertarian hence have an inherent dislike of banning things that self-appointed moral guardians decide are bad for us. So I’ve no wish to see Fixed Odds Betting Terminals – a euphemism that approaches ‘quantitative easing’ and ‘collateral damage’ in its flesh-creeping cleverness – banned, but restricted to where they’ve always been: pubs, clubs and penny amusement arcades with the time-honoured name of Fruit Machines.
In these establishments they’re a diversionary entertainment additional to the premises’ main function. No one goes to a pub because its got a fruit machine do they?
An establishment who’s primary purpose is to provide betting opportunities – unlike the fruit machined pub – will inevitably attract a disproportionate number of problem gamblers. Sure, another no sh1t Sherlock truism again, but given this, can it be justified for bookmakers to introduce ‘betting opportunites’ that are guaranteed to fleece these unfortunates, in addition to their traditional betting fodder which isn’t guaranteed to fleece them but probably will anyway if the bookmaker runs his business correctly. Fair enough
In a bookmakers the reason you go in, or should go in, is to bet on a product that demands skill and opinion, however little or however great. The provider of this product – the bookmaker – also needs to utilise skill and opinion in setting the odds and managing the bets…er…bookmaking infact
Therefore, that is why I used to admire bookmakers – your opinion to my opinion, a level playing field (perhaps undulated
), may the best man winFOBT’s require none of this and are guaranteed cash cows. Therefore for them to be associated with the once noble art of bookmaking is both shameful and denigrating
I’m quite prepared to believe I’m well out of line with the thoughts and rationale of the betting majority here on TRF as I’ve never had the remotest interest of indulging in ‘games of chance’ to satisfy a craving for gambling action: be that fruit machines, roulette or tossing a coin
If they changed the name from Fixed Odds Betting Terminals to Guaranteed Losing Terminals (which is precisely what they are) do you think that would be fair?
EF,
When I contacted Gamcare about a racing pal of mine I asked them (some here won’t be surprised
) why they did not explain odds, percentages and probabilities to addicts? Got short shrift. Now it seems that is exactly what they want children to be educated about. Actually, I remember doing probabilities and percentages at school myself, but did not realise the connection with gambling.I do feel that if gamblers did realise what these machines are and how much take out there is – FOBTs wouldn’t get the amount of use they do now.
So yes, I do think people should be educated and know what they actually are EF. Even if it is not what the machine is officially called.
Education, education, education.
Value Is EverythingWhen they were first introduced into betting shops, it was under the generic misnomer "Games with Prizes". Under such a heading I think someone would have a reasonable case for having been mis-sold a product under trading standards.
The old AWP (Fruit Machines) have seen the maximum payout limits increased exponentially in the last 10 years. When the jackpot was £15 and the cost 20p per play, no matter how chronic someone’s addiction, the amounts someone could lose was not likely to lead to thoughts of suicide.
The increased limits are just another example of how society accepts debt as a way of life. It is hardly surprising when the world’s economy is utterly bankrupt.The old AWP (Fruit Machines) have seen the maximum payout limits increased exponentially in the last 10 years. When the jackpot was £15 and the cost 20p per play, no matter how chronic someone’s addiction, the amounts someone could lose was not likely to lead to thoughts of suicide.
The increased limits are just another example of how society accepts debt as a way of life. It is hardly surprising when the world’s economy is utterly bankrupt.When someone can win multi-millions on the government sanctioned National Lottery, they can not be seen to limit another type of payout.
I agree EF, society does accept debt as a way of life, which is (imo) wrong. Don’t see what that has to do with FOBTs though.
Value Is EverythingThe old AWP (Fruit Machines) have seen the maximum payout limits increased exponentially in the last 10 years. When the jackpot was £15 and the cost 20p per play, no matter how chronic someone’s addiction, the amounts someone could lose was not likely to lead to thoughts of suicide.
The increased limits are just another example of how society accepts debt as a way of life. It is hardly surprising when the world’s economy is utterly bankrupt.When someone can win multi-millions on the government sanctioned National Lottery, they can not be seen to limit another type of payout.
I agree EF, society does accept debt as a way of life, which is (imo) wrong. Don’t see what that has to do with FOBTs though.
Probably not specifically Fixed Odds machines but gambling in general. Far too many people place bets with money they cannot afford to lose or even using lines of credit as they havent even got they actual money they cannot afford to lose in the first place. Anyone who does not obey that cardinal rule is never likely to tread the eight-fold path.
Prof,
Interesting to learn more about you. I have been studying journalism online, intermittently, over 5 years and I still haven’t passed Central or Local Gvnt. So, for the moment your powers are greater than mine.
However…
….I don’t think switching off the FOBTs results in Britain slowly becoming North Korea.I’m all for liberties and choice but a society does need some laws and protections. No, not shadowy, ostensible protection to keep the masses in their place…but reasonable one’s that make a society more bearable and humane.
I don’t think any political party has quite got the right balance since the beginning of time. Doesn’t mean it won’t happen!
I’m happy to go along with the belief that there are degrees of addictions. Plainly, some addictions are more dangerous than others and not lent to being moderate, manageable addictions. I probably am addicted to chocolate, I eat it almost every day, but it’s not ripping my life apart (my belt, maybe). Now if I started getting more heavily involved with FOBTs I have no doubt that could destroy my life quickly. Like cocaine or any other hardcore drug.
I choose not to partake to that degree, but I’m not that far away at times…so am I vulnerable or an idiot? Maybe I’m both.
What gamblers don’t need is something that can turn them into addicts so mercilessly. It’s just about greed, and isn’t that one of the biggest problems facing this earth?
I honestly don’t expect to win if I play the roulette or slots, I have very low expectations. It’s an expensive entertainment and I know it is dangerous…maybe that is the attraction, being near the edge, but I don’t honestly think so.
Should we ban cigarettes? Hmmm, I don’t think so. I don’t see any benefit from them but it is a choice. I see your point that they are destructive, but I also think the health risks are made very clear and someone who tries a cigarette is less likely to end up being destroyed than if they try the FOBT. That is my honest opinion, not backed up by any data, just opinion.
Perhaps if the regulation on the FOBTs was upgraded and there were large stickers saying "this machine is highly addictive and may lead to serious health and social problems" – that would be a positive step. At least people would be more informed.
As for your children, it sounds like you wouldn’t ostracise them or treat them with contempt if they were addicted to fruities/FOBTs. Personally, I think any addicted person should be afforded the same understanding that we offer those closest to us.
I read somewhere that being a journo is so stressful it has the highest suicide rate of all professions. Is that a myth?
Zip
these machines – glorified fruit machines cleverly placed in an acceptable and expected betting environment are actually the antithesis of true bookmaking – yours to mine – and they should all be thoroughly ashamed of themselves
No [expletive], sherlock.
But they just join a long list of untter shamelessness in our society. As I said to zippy, if you rank things in order of the danger thy pose, why not ban cigarettes right now? They kill people every day.
People buy cigarettes. Cigarette tax goes to the government. Cigarettes kill people. Fewer benefits & pensions need to be paid. Government wins.
People play FOBTs. Tax on bookmaker profit goes to government. People works more hours to get more money to play FOBTs again. More tax goes to government. Government wins.
This may help Ginger;
Some guy placed 1200 over the counter tonight in three instalments, 245, 345, 600.
Turned it into 2435.80 – fair play to him.
He confessed that he was playing with his bosses money he was supposed to be moving on to somewhere else.
That is the type of hold these machines have on these people. Why would he do such an action, a risk? Addiction.
http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/gambling-machines-boost-ladbrokes-profits/988212/top/
£361 million profit from the machines, accounting for a ridiculous 185% of operating profits. It’s not an important part of the business, it
is
the business!
Ladbrokes have 1900 shops so I make that £190,000 takeout per shop.
Tell me these figures are wrong because they’re scarcely believable – have I miscalculated somewhere??
Mike
That sounds about right. My shop had a FOBT profit of £220,000 from Sept ’09 to Sept ’10.
http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/gambling-machines-boost-ladbrokes-profits/988212/top/
The greatest evidence you need that horse racing is no longer the core business but more akin to a loss leader for the bookmakers.
Ever thought about the profits the breweries and distilleries make from selling alcohol? That ruins lives and kills people. It also gives inordinate pleasure to millions. Do you want to ban that?
Do you want to ban junk food, it makes vast profits and is having a toxic effect on certain sections of society.
We all need to stop being so hysterical.
There are risks to freedom.
I don’t understand your post EF.
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