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The point is no one else mentions the ride being what you make it out to be……only the would be experts on here are the ones complaining about it.
I defy anyone to show me ONE newspaper article, another forum or anything that indicates something was amiss aprt from the rubbish written on here.
Fist,
Did you ever stop to think about why you didn’t find any newspaper articles critical of the ride on L’Ami? I’ll give you a clue – the owner. JP McManus is treated by many, especially in the journalism field as the ‘messiah’ of jumps racing. He is considered as a hero in many parts. The former JCB driver who worked his way up to multi-millionaire – *** after having to have his Mum bail him out after he did his entire betting bank when he first started as a pro-gambler – in part from touches on his horses – he is revered by many. The suck-up type journalists (of which they are the majority – the exception being the wonderful Lydia Hislop) are not going to question the dubious running of one of his runners, in a race where his other runner – favourite by the way, landed a string of large bets. (I wonder whose bets they were?
)They are not going to want to bring controversy the way of their idol.
I used to respect Mr. McManus a lot. But after this race, he has gone down an awful lot in my estimation. I didn’t have a bet in the race (I wouldn’t bet in mickey mouse races like that personally) but many punters would have done, and they would have thought they were betting in good faith. But it was clear to even a blind man that the way the race was run, that those punters weren’t betting in good faith.
Someone had already decided what the result of that race was going to be before the tapes went up. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out who that was.
But if I told you right now Fists, that the world was not flat, you would go into a 20 page thread to tell me how it actually was flat. I think you have an inferiority complex and that is why on every thread you post on you go on and on and on and on trying to back up whatever point you have plucked out of thin air, to make you feel better about yourself, even if it ends up making you look like an idiot
Wake up and smell the coffee.
By the way, there were plenty of posts on the Betfair forum – you asked for proof of newspaper articles or similar suggestions on other forums – about the dubiousness of the ride on L’Ami, but many were pulled by the Betfair police. (Note what I said about suck-ups not wanting to court controversy over there hero, or have to take on a libel suit).
*** Sourced from ‘The High Rollers of The Turf’, by Raymond Smith
(An excellent book, if you haven’t read it).
I’ll be honest, I haven’t seen the race but have heard of some of the fallout from it. I’m not a big fan of these races and find the fact that AP McCoy does not ride any of McManus horses that run in them a little strange, even given the fact the amateurs that do are used probably as much to do with the fact they also ride them in points and are the only ones eligible to ride them in banks races. (long sentence, sorry
) But, how often when Irish bumper horses come over here are the amateurs jocked off for seasoned pros? All that said though, I did read at least 2 pieces with Bolger stating quite strongly that Garde would win and that he was the "better" horse, so punters had no excuses and if it was a plot, it wasn’t a secret one in terms of finding the winner.Fist,
You keep saying about the trainer, if he was to complain to the stewards; how long do you think it would be before JP takes all his horses away? Trainer and jockey of the second have done wonderfully well in the past from the owner’s support. Do you really think they will jeopardize that?
When stewards hold enquireys it is very difficult to aportion any wrongdoing when all connections (of winner and second) are happy with the result.
On the media I think Ken puts it well, can’t add anymore. Ooops, does that mean I do not have my own opinion Fist? Verry sorry and all that.
One other possible advantage to this result for JP and co, might be if the handicapper rates L’Ami on his finishing position. He could be well handicapped for the X country handicap at the Festival.
Oh and to equate L’Ami with that dog Harchibald is rediculous. L’Ami has never thrown away a race in that manner. L’Ami made most of the running on Saturday, so can not be said to idle that badly in front can he?
I am not so "cock sure" of what happened as some on here Fist, but it did look suspicious and: From your last comment, are you saying JP knew who was going to win before they jumped the last? "JP was halfway to picking up his winnings before they jumped the last". Is this not what some here have been saying all along? May be Jonjo did tip you off after all.
Mark
Fists, I have answered your questions already. So do not keep asking the same questions and nswer some of mine. Yet again you say the trainer is satisfied with the ride. Well see above for a possible reason.
My arguement with how you see the race is that you somehow think it was a good ride. I can see why you might think there is no skulduggery going on. I concede there are possible reasons for JT’s lapse but it was not a good ride.
If at the Festival, JT and L’Ami came to the last fence upsides a horse from a different owner. Do you think L’Ami will be as well "looked after" as he was on Friday?
Coming to the last fence JT was on exactly the same stride as Nina. Yet Nina saw a good stride and JT did not (poor judgement). Now, maybe JT took time to get balanced after the fence, before going for it (with or without the whip). Again poor jockeyship. But if he did do these two things it would be a BAD ride.
Mark
Value Is EverythingI’ll be honest, I haven’t seen the race but have heard of some of the fallout from it. I’m not a big fan of these races and find the fact that AP McCoy does not ride any of McManus horses that run in them a little strange, even given the fact the amateurs that do are used probably as much to do with the fact they also ride them in points and are the only ones eligible to ride them in banks races. (long sentence, sorry
) But, how often when Irish bumper horses come over here are the amateurs jocked off for seasoned pros? All that said though, I did read at least 2 pieces with a Bolger stating quite strongly that Garde would win and that he was the "better" horse, so punters had no excuses and if it was plot, it wasn’t a secret one in terms of finding the winner.Are you saying MCFC, that it is o.k. not to try your hardest on the second if the trainer has told the public he believes the other one has the better chance?
Mark
Value Is Everything
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How do you view the Maguire vs Burnett controversy, Fists? Was the latter’s attempt at a frame-clinching black ‘good’?
Let’s be thankful they weren’t wearing yellow and green hooped waistcoats, and aren’t both coached by Enda Bolger’s sister.
I give up I really do. JP gets favours from Stewards
…there were big bets on a horse that looked a good thing. All circumstanial evidence lads …………not one of you telling me how JT should have ridden the horse differnetly.
If you think L’ami should have won then say so…..if you think like me there is no way on God’s earth he could have then there is nothing for him to answer and neither do I.
I give up I really do. JP gets favours from Stewards
…there were big bets on a horse that looked a good thing. All circumstanial evidence lads …………not one of you telling me how JT should have ridden the horse differnetly.
If you think L’ami should have won then say so…..if you think like me there is no way on God’s earth he could have then there is nothing for him to answer and neither do I.
I have told you exactly what JT should have done Fist, you just do not want to see it.
Should have done exactly what Nina did. Asked his horse to jump exactly when Nina did, ask his horse for his effort exactly when Nina did, in exactly the same way as Nina did.
I say again, it does not matter if L’Ami would have won or not. Nobody can say with any certainty whether, had he "gone for it" at the same time as Nina, he’d have won. Point is he was not given the opportunity to do so. Either because of a poor ride (most likely) or something more sinister.
Why not read peoples posts?
Mark
Value Is EverythingThese are the relevant sections of the Rules of Racing. Firstly this is Rule 155:
Every horse which runs in a race shall be run and be seen to be run on its merits. This means the Rider must comply with Instruction H18 and take and be seen to take all other reasonable and permissible measures throughout the race, however it develops, to ensure the horse is given a full opportunity to achieve the best possible placing.
This is the key paragraph of Insruction H18
The general requirement is that every horse must be ridden in such a way that the Rider can be seen to have made a genuine attempt to obtain from his horse timely, real and substantial efforts to achieve the best possible placing. It is not necessary to use the whip to satisfy this requirement but a Rider must give his horse at least a ‘hands and heels’ ride.
In the case of L’Ami, I’d suggest that a majority on this thread feel that there was a case worthy of investigation by the stewards and the relevant phrase from the rule is ‘take and be seen to take’.
From my viewpoint, however valid the views put forward by Fist that the result was a foregone conclusion, the horse probably wouldn’t have found any extra etc etc, the rider of L’Ami was not ‘seen’ to take all permissible measures to obtain the best possible placing.
Now you might not like the rule – I’m sure Fist will tell us it’s daft and I think it’s exactly the sort of vague language that produces the sort of dispute held here – but it is currently the rule and as such, it should be applied.
I should add that there was a very similar but significantly worse case involving a placed horse at the Chepstow meeting a week before Cheltenham, and again no action was taken by the local stewards, although that didn’t involve horses in the same ownership.
As you know AP, these things happen fairly often yet connections often get away with it – crikey, we’ve got some trainers telling the RP in advance of a G1 chase that they are only sending their horse down to ‘give it a hunt round’ – go on, admit you’re schooling it in public in advance, why don’t you?!
FoF, of course I am aware that horses need riding differently, however in this case some effort of some type from JT would have been preferable! The ride was dodgy to say the least, and very much looked a case of "after you madam…."
That’s the biggest pile of shyte I have read since I joined this form….stick to percentages mate as you know absolutely nothing about horse riding.
So why is it s..te Fist?
And you say we do not explain ourselves.
Or is this just a realisation of losing the arguement. Having to result to swearing, without explanation.
Can you answer a few of AP’s points too Fist? In my, AP and many others opinion JT was not seen to be making sufficient effort. To a degree that should have been looked in to. So can you tell us why his effort appeared less than it should be?
No, I thought not.
Did you ever answer my question, about whether you expected L’Ami to have such a considerate ride if upsides one that is not an owner companion? No, thought not.
Oh and I doubt if AP has had much experience of race riding, or Timeform Jim McGrath. Just because people have no race riding experience does not mean their opinion is s..te. So please give reasons and enlighten us.
O.K. Fist, am bracing myself for more abuse, what’s it going to be this time?
Mark
Value Is Everythingdidn’t bet on the race myself but anyone backing lami can feel cheated. garde champetre might well have won anyway in a truly fought out finish, but the fact is nobody will ever know.
what we do know is that if it had been lami jumping last with a horse from any other stable, the whip would of been pulled a lot earlier and the jockey would have got a lot more animated.Like I said, we’ll never know
So why is it s..te Fist?
And you say we do not explain ourselves.
Or is this just a realisation of losing the arguement. Having to result to swearing, without explanation.
Can you answer a few of AP’s points too Fist? In my, AP and many others opinion JT was not seen to be making sufficient effort. To a degree that should have been looked in to. So can you tell us why his effort appeared less than it should be?
No, I thought not.
Did you ever answer my question, about whether you expected L’Ami to have such a considerate ride if upsides one that is not an owner companion? No, thought not.
Oh and I doubt if AP has had much experience of race riding, or Timeform Jim McGrath. Just because people have no race riding experience does not mean their opinion is s..te. So please give reasons and enlighten us.
O.K. Fist, am bracing myself for more abuse, what’s it going to be this time?
Mark
Ginge you can’t just ask a horse to jump at the same time as another horse you have to be on the right stride. Doing as you suggested JT would have been sent into orbit and the horse could well be in heaven by now loooking down saying it was Ginge’s fault
I can’t argue that JT was on the wrong stride and had to correct his horse.. Could be he changed his legs approaching the fence when Nina came upsides on the approach or it could have been just bad judgement by JT. Whatever it was that caused JT to jump it slower than the winner was not down to JT taking a deliberate pull at the horse so Nina could pass him.
Nina met it running JT never but that is often the case when you are coming from behind and it gives you a huge advantage at times. It may not sit well with some people but Jockeys will often half lap another horse to get them to take off at the wrong time and try and force them into errors……you have seen it thousands of times and perhaps not realsed it……….it happens out in the country it happens even more coming to the last couple of fences.
So the last thing on earth a jockey wants a horse to do is take off at the same time as another horse. who is on different stride to him.
Hope you now undertstand how silly your statement was
To some extent , I can understand part of Fist’s reasoning. How often do we see two horses coming to the last and appearing to jump in harmony but one takes a tumble. Why is that, I ask? They approach at the same speed, rise together and appear to be over together but then one goes. Is it because they’re different lengths and therefore one horse is distracted because it sees its body has not landed alongside it’s compatriot and in trying to adjust, for a split second, takes its mind off a sound landing? As an aside – there’s a local independent bookie here that offers full stake refund for first and last fence fallers, plus full refund for any hurdler falling, plus full refund for short head or less defeat.
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My guess is Fists had his b*llocks on the winner and is therefore prone to think nothing of the rides given to those behind because, as is obvious with him, money matters. His shrine to JP remains in tact, his ego unscathed and the overwhelming urge of self-righteousness that consumes his every fibre has received a timely boost.
Whether McNamara was correct to stand off the final fence, the simple fact remains – he took two looks at Nina on Garde Champetre, when leading, and let her go clear before consenting to ask L’Ami for his effort. The conversation immediately after the finish line is merely a nail in what should be their coffin.
With the above in mind, we’re left to answer three questions:
Did McNamara make sufficient effort to win the race?
Was the belief that L’Ami wouldn’t respond for pressure reasonable?
Does Bolger’s explanation that confidence is an issue hold up?Let’s take them one at a time, Fists, just to give you a chance of keeping up (I can be a patronising moron too).
McNamara didn’t make sufficient effort to win the race, justifiable in that he made little effort at all. He held a clear advantage over eventual winner, stablemate and fellow McManus (and incredibly well-backed) horse Garde Champetre, which was seemingly willingly surrendered before pressure was applied in the final furlong.
Case closed.
Forgetting his age, and the fact that he is unlikely to trouble Kauto Star any time soon, there is no reason to suspect that pressure would have any adverse effect on his performance. He won a point-to-point under hands and heels having hit the front approaching the final fence, and ran perfectly well when held-up behind Dix Villez over the same course and distance he ran over in the race in question. On both occasions he came under what could be described as pressure, though was seemingly expected to run to his best under no such circumstances this time around. And, if pressure was an issue, why ride him to close in the final furlong and not at any other time?
Case closed.
Confidence can only be an issue following a fall if both his performances, and the actions of the trainer, tend to that conclusion. If Bolger, or indeed his sister, had any inclination that L’Ami’s confidence had been dented then why run him at Puncehstown only three weeks after such a scarring incident? Granted, he didn’t run overly well, but a subsequent point-to-point victory and fair fourth over a demanding cross-country course would hardly indicate that the horse is having problems.
Case closed.
The one strange thing is that L’Ami was allowed to lead throughout the race, rather than being held up in rear as is usually the case. Perhaps the only question that remains is (I’m labelling, and hence excluding from consideration, the blatant official and media ‘oversights’ as sadly predictable given the owner involved):
Did McNamara realise he was going too well given the change in tactics?
Case remains open…
And, for all our sakes, Fists, stop rolling out the ‘no-one else but me has ever ridden a horse at racing speed, so I am uniquely qualified to comment on every area of the sport and will patronise all whenever I see fit’ argument. It’s tired, and it’s pathetic – I can explain the wonders of nuclear fission and particle acceleration, and discuss string theory and the musings of Stephen Hawking with a degree of confidence, but that doesn’t mean I could have built the LHC (that’s Large Hadron Collider, by the way – Google it, you may learn something).
So why is it s..te Fist?
And you say we do not explain ourselves.
Or is this just a realisation of losing the arguement. Having to result to swearing, without explanation.
Can you answer a few of AP’s points too Fist? In my, AP and many others opinion JT was not seen to be making sufficient effort. To a degree that should have been looked in to. So can you tell us why his effort appeared less than it should be?
No, I thought not.
Did you ever answer my question, about whether you expected L’Ami to have such a considerate ride if upsides one that is not an owner companion? No, thought not.
Oh and I doubt if AP has had much experience of race riding, or Timeform Jim McGrath. Just because people have no race riding experience does not mean their opinion is s..te. So please give reasons and enlighten us.
O.K. Fist, am bracing myself for more abuse, what’s it going to be this time?
Mark
Ginge you can’t just ask a horse to jump at the same time as another horse you have to be on the right stride. Doing as you suggested JT would have been sent into orbit and the horse could well be in heaven by now loooking down saying it was Ginge’s fault
I can’t argue that JT was on the wrong stride and had to correct his horse.. Could be he changed his legs approaching the fence when Nina came upsides on the approach or it could have been just bad judgement by JT. Whatever it was that caused JT to jump it slower than the winner was not down to JT taking a deliberate pull at the horse so Nina could pass him.
Nina met it running JT never but that is often the case when you are coming from behind and it gives you a huge advantage at times. It may not sit well with some people but Jockeys will often half lap another horse to get them to take off at the wrong time and try and force them into errors……you have seen it thousands of times and perhaps not realsed it……….it happens out in the country it happens even more coming to the last couple of fences.
So the last thing on earth a jockey wants a horse to do is take off at the same time as another horse. who is on different stride to him.
Hope you now undertstand how silly your statement was
We have success! So JT did give L’Ami a POOR RIDE then. At last he admits it.
"Half lengthing" it is called Fist Golden Freeze on Carvills Hill (allegedly) and all that. I know all about it, but this was not a case of that. The two were on the same stride going in to the fence, where Nina saw a stride and JT (apparently) did not. Choosing instead to take a pull, in the (apparent) belief he was on the wrong stride. I saw no change of stride by the horse what so ever. As you say Fist, bad judgement, a poor ride.
Mark
Value Is Everything
)
) But, how often when Irish bumper horses come over here are the amateurs jocked off for seasoned pros? All that said though, I did read at least 2 pieces with Bolger stating quite strongly that Garde would win and that he was the "better" horse, so punters had no excuses and if it was a plot, it wasn’t a secret one in terms of finding the winner.
…there were big bets on a horse that looked a good thing. 
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