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When Arkle was beaten in two handicaps he would have been conceding lumps of weight to the opposition. I know he has carried 12-7 not sure if he also carried 12-10.
Kauto has been beaten in two limited handicaps , beaten 4l by Monkerhostin giving him 4lb and beaten 1.5l by Monets Garden giving him a stone.
Lets wait until Kauto wins another gold cup before declaring him the new messiah
Aragorn said – "There is no way on gods earth Arkle would have beaten Kauto star by 30 lengths or more (Which the ratings suggest) over the GC trip though… Especially not over 3m or any distance short of that.. People forget Arkle was beaten twice in his pomp in the hennessy and over 2m5f in the massey fergusson.. So much like, Kauto he was not infallible."
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Talk about waving a red rag to a bull. Not only would Arkle have beaten Kauto Star hands down at levels; he would have also beaten him conceding weight, in my opinion.
Regarding Arkle’s defeats in the two out of three Hennesy races he contested : firstly against Mill House in 1963 when just out of novice company. But for a bad slip on landing at the third last, most agree he would have run Fulke Walwyn’s Gold Cup winner much closer. Trying to concede 35lbs Stalbridge Colonist (subsequently 2nd in the 67 Gold Cup) in ‘ 66 proved just beyond him – he was beaten half a length. Some scribes blamed Taaffe for being over confident.
His Massey Ferguson (2m 5f) third to Flying Wild and Buona Notte (both considered good horses in their own right ) is considered Arkle’s career best performance by many good judges. He carried 12st 10lbs that day, against Flying Wild’s 10st 6lbs and Buona Notte’s 10st 12lbs. He was only just beaten.
Can you imagine Kauto trying to give that weight away to Monet’s Garden and Racing Demon at Ascot last Saturday? I can’t. He couldn’t give a stone to Nicky Richard’s grey at Aintree, let alone the 2 stones and more Arkle gave to his opponents at Cheltenham.
I rest my case.
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It’s hard to argue with you on the 30 lengths thing but that is the sort of distances Arkle would win by without breaking sweat. He actually started at 1/10 when winning one of his gold cups and won in a canter by 30 lengths after taking a fence out by the roots………was watching the people standing at the fence so Pat taffe reckoned.
It’s hard to imagine everything stopping because one horse is entered for a race and he automatically has to give everything 35 lbs or a horse set to carry 14 stone 7 lbs in the national.
I have never doubted Kauto Star is the best since Arkle but nothing else I have seen in forty years would I even try to compare with him. Not dessie, Captain Christie Burroughill Lad none of them. He was at least a stone or more ahead of any of them.
You would have to have seen him in the Gallagher Gold Cup to believe it………..conceding weight he not only wins it he looks like a friggin greyhound when he took off and knocks 16 seconds off the Sandown track record………the combination weight, distance won by and time it was something like 60 odd lengths with a Gold Cup winner behind him.
Imagine Denman being capabable of doing that to a fit Desert Orchid and you might get an idea of how good he was.
I take your point about medicines etc but they may mean for healthier horses but times tell us there has been no vast improvement between horses of the 60’s and horses of today….Mamoud in the 1934 Derby empahaisis that Arkle in the Gallagher does the same.
I have no idea why but horses just don’t seem to improve like humans do.
"H" is very keen on Denman and refers to him as the new Mill House. I am totally convinced if you put Denman in a race with Arkle he would beat him out of site…….the run very similar only Arkle was a far far better jumper and was 1 length faster away from his fences………actually gained over 2 lengths in the air on other horses on a regular basis……he would clear a fence by 18" just for fun……Denman would certainly have stayed with Arkle but when the chips were down and time to go for home he would be 10 lengths in front of him before you could pull your hankerchief out your pocket…….he did the same to every single horse that met him at levels except when he neat Mill House in his first Gold Cup by an easy 5 lengths.
Kauto and Arkle are/were tow totally different horses. I have never seen Kauto come off the bridle when he is 100% fit until Ruby wants him to. Would he have been able to travel as well with Arkle? I really don’t know but expect Denman to answer that question in the Gold Cup.
Kautos best performance for me was the King George the ease in which he won that was awesome.He did it in a hack canter, he was so superior it was breathtaking.
He was no where near impressive on Saturday IMO……..perhaps that can be put down to him feeling his hoof infection, him having a bit condition to work on, or it was the distance I don’t know. However it was still a performace hard for others to match
For me if he does what he did in the KG to Denman Exotic Dancer and co in the Gold Cup, when you would expect them to be at their very best, I will then defy anyone who says he is not up there with Arkle who is currently unapposed as the best ever.
Until that happens I still say Arkle would be 7 lbs to 10 lbs ahead of him. , but I have a feeling after the Gold Cup I may be talking in ounces and not pounds.
If Kauto can produce that famous instant acceleration at the end of this Gold Cup it will be some performance…..If he wins on the bridle without having to, then God only knows how good he really is.
Kauto is definitely better than Kicking King but any horse that has 2 King George’s & a Gold Cup in the bag by the age of 7, deserves a lot of respect IMO.
Because of his injury, we obviously didn’t get a chance to weigh him up properly but considering Turpin Green was only 5L off Kauto in the Gold Cup, surely KK would have been even closer…
It was probably the wrong analogy but its funny that ‘boring’ champions were mentioned because I think See More Business was another who was really underestimated because it always looked workmanlike.
King George by 17L
Martell Cup by 21L
Aon Chase by 18L
Pillar Chase by a dist
Charlie Hall Chase by a dist
Jim Ford Chase by a dist
3 x Rehearsal Chases (2 carrying 11-12, carried 11-10 in the other).Just a bit of what SMB acheived but the word ‘superstar’ never came up once, whereas if Kauto or Denman put up a similar performance (e.g. Denman in the AON), people are in raptures.
I would agree that SMB has been strangely underappreciated but it also has to be said (and im talking a bit from memeroy here) he could throw in some disappointing performances. Kicking King the same perhaps
Neither horse quite had the aura of invincibilty that Kauto (and Denman) has. Sure Kauto hasnt won every race, but the rare defeats are readily excusable rather than very disappointing
If I was asked to chose between Kicking King and Kauto Star it would ttake me about 2 seconds to answer and could do so without thinking about it. I never heard anyone call him a superstar or the best chaser in the world nor did anyone ever talk about him in the same breath as Arkle.
I’m sorry if a offend anyone but Kicking King is about as far away from Kauto Star ans Kauto Star was away from Arkle last season.
Kauto Star’s victory in the King George closed the gap by along way between Arkle and Kauto but there is still along way to go.
Kauto travels really well in his races but how well will he travel when Denman is leading the pack…………if he can cruise up to him and past him like he did to ED in the King George and Denman beats of everything else I will believe he could possible have laid up with Arkle.
No medicines or fancy machines will change the fact that horses haven’t changed in 40 years. The times are all there and we all have eyes in our heads.
I would love to be abale to say Kauto Star is as good as Arkle was but he is going to have to win the gold Cup on a tight rein and go on to win another King George plus another Gold Cup by 20 lengths before I will say he is better. he does have instant acceleration that Arkle never had but when Kauto uses it there is a chink in his armour…….he gets away from them and doesn’t seem to go any further away……….Arkle got away from them a bit slower but went further and fueurther and further away…if you had seen him in his third gold cup or the gallagher gold cup knowing he was running gainst a horse that would have made Kicking King look like cart horse you would know exactly what I mean.
If I had to say to anyone form the Arkle area that Arkle could have given Kicking King 28lbs and beat him 10 lengths round Cheltenham I would get about zero argument from any of them.
With all due respect, would it have really been worth taking the time/risks in bringing KK back if he was just going to run at Aintree/Punchestown?
It’s got to be the Gold Cup or retirement IMO.
Understand that Paul…but hes not so old that next years GC would be out of the question. God forbid that Denman or Kauto cannot race then, but knowing this game….
On his last run (and even his first comeback) hes going to be thrashed out of sight in the GC. Surely a trainers job is to tailor the plans to what he has in front of him?
The trouble is there are too many putting them up when they’ve just been cut drastically in the market, claiming to have taken a far bigger price.
Put them up first, or don’t bother.
Here’s one for ya- what do Kicking King and Munching Mike have in common and what comes between them?
(the clue is that I’ll know all about this in about 4 years time….)They’re both from a particularly shi*te childrens ‘Learn the Alphabet’ book. No idea what comes between them, but probably "Lusting Larry" or some other such nonsense.
About 4 years, you say? That’s some plan you have going there, carvillshill.
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