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And are you saying Our Vic wasn’t at his best to win at Cheltenham and then beat Kauto Star (and Exotic Dancer) at Aintree ? Says a lot for that pair. Pure poppycock
Take another look, aaronizneez – I said Our Vic did nothing but uphold the form of the King George thereafter.
The Cheltenham run was over 2m5f, and in my opinion, Our Vic did not quite run up to the same level of form in that race, as he had behind Kauto Star at Kempton. Aintree was all about Kauto Star’s mistake two-out, and form-wise, Our Vic has probably run very close to his King George effort.
According to you, these efforts make his a less useful "yardstick" than The Listener. Good for you.
Grasshopper
I suggest you take another look.What you said was
Aaronizneez, I think you are doing some high-class horses a severe dis-service. Our Vic, for example, did nothing but uphold the form of the King George for the rest of the season, and it’s well established that he is at his best fto (to counter the ‘pre-blinkers’ point).
That infers to me that you think his best run was his first time out run. I happen to disagree. I think Our Vic’s best two runs were his last two. As for Aintree Our Vic also lost 3 or 4 lengths at one fence so KS’s blunder has less significance for me, and it has to be said that jumping is part of the game.
With regards to The Listener I am saying he is a more reliable yardstick than Exotic Dancer whose rating is based largely on running against Kauto Star.
That infers to me that you think his best run was his first time out run. I happen to disagree.
Disagreeing is fair game, aaronizneez.
However, use of terms like "pure poppycock" about an opposing point of view, tends to suggest a degree of certainty on your part about the correctness of your interpretation.
Since poppycock is derived from the Dutch and means roughly, ‘soft dung’, I would suggest that it is strong enough a term of contempt already.
I’ll get back in my box now.
Before people start misinterpreting my words, I never said that Kauto’s achievements have surpassed that of Desert Orchid.
I stated that Kauto Star’s 2006 – 2007 Gold Cup winning campaign was the most impressive I’ve seen, including Dessie’s incredible 1988 – 1989 season.
Only 26, I only caught the tail end of Dessie’s incredible career, so he didn’t belong to me. Like Arkle, I’m aware of his achievements and, like Red Rum, he was bigger than racing and became a national treasure.
I will need to celebrate my own half-century before I see another like Kauto Star. His embarrassingly easy 2007 King George victory will never be forgotten. He made a very good field look very average.
I remember a horse winning a Gold Cup making the field look average, Denman this year.
I admire your enthusiasm, but reign yourself in a bit. Kauto Star has currently achieved a similar career to Kicking King. Top class alright, but beatable alright.
Kauto Star has currently achieved a similar career to Kicking King. Top class alright, but beatable alright.
You’re not serious, PV, are you?
Kauto Star has won two Tingle Creeks in addition to two KG’s and a Gold Cup, and surely has immeasurably better form in the book over staying trips than Kicking King ever managed.
I’ll accept KS has the better form, but I’m trying to bring some perspective. Beating Ashley Brook couple of lengths doesn’t look super-equine. People have obviously given Kauto Star their hearts, and he quite obviously isn’t what they hoped.
This "horse of a lifetime" stuff is over the top. He isn’t even the best chaser of the last 10 years for me, Moscow Flyer is the best full stop – NEVER lost a completed chase until he was ELEVEN. How quick we forget., and Denman looks the best stayer (over 3m or 3m 2f whatever).
Lets have it right – VPU, Ashley Brook et al would have been lapped by peak Azertyuiop, Well Chief and the Flyer so Kauto’s 2m performances are probably overhyped.
Lets have it right – VPU, Ashley Brook et al would have been lapped by peak Azertyuiop, Well Chief and the Flyer so Kauto’s 2m performances are probably overhyped.
Azertyuiop at his peak was easily beaten by Kicking King and Kingscliff in the King George, which highlights KS’s amazing achievements in 06 and 07 over a range of distances.
Azertyuiop at peak Vs Kauto Star at peak over two miles??
Got to be Azertyuiop for me, by a couple all out- I don’t think Kauto has ever shown himself to be quite capable of 182 over 2m, personally. Only time he’s managed (or bettered) that has been over a sharp 3m IMO.
I always used to oppose Azertyuiop on my speed rating assertion that his fastest times were always when he was beaten so i’m not the one to ask, but its only the 12th of Sep, no decent jumps horse has jumped a fence in anger and 5 pages down Kauto vs Denman has already morphed into Kauto vs Azerty!
Kauto Star has currently achieved a similar career to Kicking King. Top class alright, but beatable alright.
You’re not serious, PV, are you?
Kauto Star has won two Tingle Creeks in addition to two KG’s and a Gold Cup, and surely has immeasurably better form in the book over staying trips than Kicking King ever managed.
Kicking King ran about ten seconds faster in the King George on the same reported ground than KS. Ten seconds is a long time in my book to find, hard held or not.
I apologise for the previous use of poppycock
Arkle never won the national did he?
That’s because he never ran in the race. The Duchess of Westminster was totally against running him in the race, in case he got injured. Besides, he’d probably would have to had carried at least 18 stones to give the others a chance. :wink:
Pat Taffe in his excellent book "My Life and Arkle’s" (long out of print, but sometimes turns up in the second hand market) always said that he thought that given a racing weight that Arkle would have won the National. There is a direct line of form through that gallant Scottish hero, Freddie, who was second in two National under top weight and second to Arkle in a Hennesy getting about 35 pounds and Arkle hammered him by 15 lengths.
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