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Ok staying race then – i’m sure we both knew what was being debating here without being pedantic.
The Queen Alexandra is the premier race over 2m5f. Would you expect the best flat stayer to go for that?The King George is a staying chase run over three miles. The Cheltenham Gold Cup is a staying chase run over three miles-two furlongs.
Big difference.
God is that time of year again already?
The geese are departing, the countryside is muddy, there’s a chill in the air and I see the names ‘Denman’ and ‘Kauto Star’ in a thread accompanied by the rattle of toys being propelled from prams.
Where’s that cardboard box?
And which do you consider the premier race of the two?
The two are different, but definately comparable.
I actually reckon Andrew Hughes is right – i’m getting back in my box now.
God is that time of year again already?
The geese are departing, the countryside is muddy, there’s a chill in the air and I see the names ‘Denman’ and ‘Kauto Star’ in a thread accompanied by the rattle of toys being propelled from prams.
Where’s that cardboard box?
Yes, AH, it is that time of year again! It’s been that time of year since, oh, I don’t know, March 14th.
Never too early to have an opinion.
The ‘Cheltenham 2008’ section is still showing signs of life and it won’t be long before we start debating Cheltenham 2009.
Arkle never won the national did he?
Corm,
As Moehat points out I was just referring to a weight carrying performance rather than Arkle winning the national.
To be fair if he wins the Hennessy off 182 that will be remarkable in itself. I can’t see anything stopping him. Very few, if any, will be in the handicap though. What did Trabolgan win it off? I think he may have just about sneaked into the handicap proper.
They’ll be making him carry 12st 7lb soon!!!
Trabolgan was 151, so would be 5 lb out of the handicap if running from the same mark in December.
Assuming he does the business in Ireland in his proposed prep run, Air Force One (current OR 150) will be just about the only serious Hennessy contender I can think of who will make the handicap proper with Denman at the moment.
The top and bottom of it is that Kauto Star has got to get his act together to be any kind of threat to Denman.
The 7/1 is bordeering on stupidity IMO and I have had a few bets already but let’s face it Kauto as brillliant as he is has a mountain to climb.
I am hoping he can forget Ascot and bounce back.
Why Ascot? you might ask.
It,s only a theory on my part but when Kauto won the King George I rated that the best peerformance by a chaser since Arkle won the Gallacher Gold cup.
Yet in the Cheltenham Gold Cup he put up a completely disappointing performance.
There could be several reasons. The sticky ground being the favourite plus the fact Denman could run on ice and it wouldn’t bother him one bit.
I think there could be more to it than that.
When a horse goes lame immediately after a race there is a good chance he was feeling pain during the race. I for one was disappointed with him at Ascot and he certainly wasn’t anything like the horse he was at Kempton. Despite winning he had to be pushed out which suprised me.
If he has gone to Cheltenham doubting himself or simply thinking is this going to hurt then it could explain why he wasn’t his normal self.ched a twig at Kempton and jumped very well at Ascot yet in the Gold Cup he looked to lack confidence right from the start. There was no spring in his heels and he looked to me like he could have been looking after himself. The minute Denman jumped the 1st fence second time wrong Kauto lookled like he was never going to win.
As I said it’s only a theory but for me he jumped like a horse who lacked confidence and unless he can get back to King George form and jump Cheltenham like he did Kempton he would never beat Denman in a hundred years.
With luck he will come back to his best and win the King George with his head in his chest again. After that I can’t see them going to Ascot again and hopefully he will turn up at Cheltenham full of confidence.
If he does I can’t see Denman beating him again. He beat a half baked Kauto by 7 lengths and with a clear round Kauto could make that up in a couple of hundred yards.
Certainly worth the risk at 7/1 IMO
I just hope the real Kauto Star manages to turn up in March 2009 against the mighty Denman, on hopefully decent ground and not the over watered stuff! It might not stop Denman winning again, but I’m sure KS would travel and jump better than he did this year. One worry for me though is his race at Aintree where Old Vic nailed him on the line. The worry wasn’t the serious mistake he made, it was more the way he was asked to race from a long way out that day instead of being held on to for his usual burst in the home straight. Will that effort have scarred him in any way mentally? I hope not! I would love to see Ruby being given the choice to ride either KS or Denman in the 2009 GC, his decision would tell all, but I’m not sure if he will be given that option!
I don’t think Kauto would beat Denman at Kempton, in fact I don’t think Kauto star will beat Denman (bar a fall or big error) anywhere at three miles or more at level weights unless the ground was markedly in favour of KS. It may not be quite the test of stamina and jumping that is presented at Cheltenham but the KG is no sprint and it presents a significant test of stamina, particularly if run at the sort of no nonsense gallop that Denman would serve up to the others.
KS is an extremely talented and versatile animal but, of teh two, Denman may be the horse of lifetime.
Well you know how to get a man’s back up that’s for sure.
I would have the biggest bet of my racing life if I thought Kauto could repeat his performance of last seasons King George.
He was never out of a canter and even McCoy said he had never seen anything like it.
He left OV standing still that day and I have no reason to believe Denman would have been treated any differently.
Everything at Cheltenham was in the big horses favour. The stiff track was always going to be in his favour, The ground being tacky wouldn’t bother him one bit and the fact Kauto ran like a cow made it an easy win for Denman.
The horse we saw at Cheltenham and Aintree didn’t have a patch on the Kauto Star we saw at Kempton.
I think you are very much alone in your thinking Corm. Even Harry Findlay says he wouldn’t dream of taking on Kauto over 3 miles on a track like Kempton. He simply would lose every advantage he had at Cheltenham and be trounced IMO.
Taking it of course that kauto comes back to his best
He left OV standing still that day and I have no reason to believe Denman would have been treated any differently.
I’ll give you an obvious reason ~ Denman is in a different parish to Our Vic. He also doesn’t need an extended three miles to show his quality. In both the Sun Alliance and the Gold Cup he had his field absolutely crucified more than half a mile from home. Anyone who thinks that Kauto Star would murder Denman for speed over a sharp three miles has simply been watching racing with their eyes closed. I admit that Kempton isn’t the ideal track for Denman, but that’s true of the majority of chasers. When the Lexus at Leopardstown is worth as much, it is indeed madness to aim two top class horses horses at one target when they could take both without breaking sweat.
He left OV standing still that day and I have no reason to believe Denman would have been treated any differently.
Even Harry Findlay says he wouldn’t dream of taking on Kauto over 3 miles on a track like Kempton. He simply would lose every advantage he had at Cheltenham and be trounced IMO.
Taking it of course that kauto comes back to his best
Kauto Star would need to come back to his very best to beat Denman, no doubt about that.
You’re right, Findlay has stated that he wouldn’t want to tackle Kauto at Kempton. Now, it says a lot when an arrogant, loud-mouth like Findlay admits something like that.
Kempton over three miles would represent an entirely different challenge for Denman. Anyone who has witnessed Kauto’s two victories in the King George should know that Denman would have a mountain to climb to beat him.
It takes a very special horse to win the Tingle Creek, King George and a Cheltenham Gold Cup in the same season.
How many horses have done that? I know a certain grey horse achieved this feat during his Gold Cup winning campaign, but I think it’s fair to say that Kauto beat far superior opposition.
Kauto’s unbeaten, Gold Cup winning campaign is the best I’ve seen by a long, long way and it will be another 20 years before another horse demonstrates that level of versatility and class.
Kauto is THE horse of a lifetime.
I’m obviously in full agreement with Cormack and Rory here. At the end of the day, as Rory states, if the Gold Cup finished after 2.5m, Denman won as he liked.
I’m not sure i’d agree Kautos achievements eclipsed Desert Orchids either.
Rory – the horses that Denman mullered in the Sun Alliance were hardly in the same class as the King George runners of that year….
My only worry with Kauto is that i think he’s scared of Denman – as was shown in the recent Nicholls interview on C4. If the two of them were to jump a the same time i wouldn;t be surprised if Kauto shat it!And are you saying Our Vic wasn’t at his best to win at Cheltenham and then beat Kauto Star (and Exotic Dancer) at Aintree ? Says a lot for that pair. Pure poppycock
Take another look, aaronizneez – I said Our Vic did nothing but uphold the form of the King George thereafter.
The Cheltenham run was over 2m5f, and in my opinion, Our Vic did not quite run up to the same level of form in that race, as he had behind Kauto Star at Kempton. Aintree was all about Kauto Star’s mistake two-out, and form-wise, Our Vic has probably run very close to his King George effort.
According to you, these efforts make his a less useful "yardstick" than The Listener. Good for you.
I think you are very much alone in your thinking Corm.
Afraid not Fist.
It takes a very special horse to win the Tingle Creek, King George and a Cheltenham Gold Cup in the same season.
How many horses have done that? I know a certain grey horse achieved this feat during his Gold Cup winning campaign, but I think it’s fair to say that Kauto beat far superior opposition.
Kauto’s unbeaten, Gold Cup winning campaign is the best I’ve seen by a long, long way
Kauto Star has a long way to go before he can be compared to Desert Orchid. Maybe when he’s lumped top weight for 3m 5f to win an Irish Grand National or when he’s won 5 King George’s or continously given weight and beatings to top class horses in their own right.
KS can be called the horse of a lifetime – but only if you’re 20 or younger.
Lee
Talking about the Bugle of Bath running scared of Kauto, I’d say these fears would almost help Denman were the two ever to meet in the KG (which unfortunately seems an academic argument), or at least ensure all disadvantages are remedied. Instead of taking up the running a circuit out and winding it up from there, Denman could tank along from the start, and if that were to happen I’d be willing to have a cheeky wager that the RP comment after the race would conclude with the word "unchallenged".
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