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Bosranic
I’m probably in the minority but my problem with Kauto Star is the quality of opposition he has beaten. There is no doubting that he is a very good horse but quite a lot of his form is tied in with an overrated Exotic Dancer who was the highest rated chaser he beat last year (I think!) . Whilst KS in the King George was highly impressive he was beating the same old protagonists , Exotic Dancer, another overrated horse in Racing Demon and a pre blinkers Our Vic. Our Vic gives some credence to the form but I would say he definitely improved for the blinkers in his final two races. Denman humps top weight to win the Henessey emphatically, wins nicely at Christmas beating a more reliable yardstick for me in The Listener(in his conditions) and then thumps all and sundry in the Gold Cup which for me is by far the best performance of a 3M+ chaser last season. It goes without saying that KS is far more versatile with regards to trip and I can’t see Denman tackling a Tingle Creek this year so in that regard I’ll agree you don’t see horses like that very often, although in a lifetime I’m not too sure as Desert Orchid wasn’t too bad at anything from 2M to 3M5F if I remember rightly.
All IMHO of course
Cue Fists of Fury…………………………
Granted winning Tingle Creeks as well as Gold Cups is wildly impressive, and something Denman will almost certainly never do. However, wouldn’t a series of impressive weight carrying performances in handicaps such as the Hennessey and -dare I say it- the National allow Denman the same level of credence?
Aaronizneez, I think you are doing some high-class horses a severe dis-service. Our Vic, for example, did nothing but uphold the form of the King George for the rest of the season, and it’s well established that he is at his best fto (to counter the ‘pre-blinkers’ point).
And Kauto Star hasn’t scrambled home against these horses – he won at Kempton and Ascot with his head in his chest.
Granted winning Tingle Creeks as well as Gold Cups is wildly impressive, and something Denman will almost certainly never do. However, wouldn’t a series of impressive weight carrying performances in handicaps such as the Hennessey and -dare I say it- the National allow Denman the same level of credence?
I’d agree with that.
If Denman can win the Hennessy off 182, then it would represent the kind of outstanding handicap performance not seen in 20-odd years – possibly longer.
Kauto will always be the more versatile, but the suggestion that Denman will never be able to compile a comporable record of achievement, seems somewhat premature to me. Personally, I just can’t see Denman being able to win at Newbury – but then again, I said the same thing last year!
I’m just glad that both have sporting owners, who are prepared to campaign their horses like the superstars they are.
Aaronizneez, I think you are doing some high-class horses a severe dis-service. Our Vic, for example, did nothing but uphold the form of the King George for the rest of the season, and it’s well established that he is at his best fto (to counter the ‘pre-blinkers’ point).
And Kauto Star hasn’t scrambled home against these horses – he won at Kempton and Ascot with his head in his chest.
Take out Denman & Neptune Collonges he would have won with head in chest against his old mate Exotic Dancer in the Gold Cup
And are you saying Our Vic wasn’t at his best to win at Cheltenham and then beat Kauto Star (and Exotic Dancer) at Aintree ? Says a lot for that pair. Pure poppycock
Arkle never won the national did he?
That’s because he never ran in the race. The Duchess of Westminster was totally against running him in the race, in case he got injured. Besides, he’d probably would have to had carried at least 18 stones to give the others a chance.
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Exotic Dancer suffered an interrupted preperation for the Gold Cup. He ran a blinder considering the ground was also against him. The niggling problems he suffered last season and his gruelling Gold Cup effort took their toll, so you can discard his last two runs.
During Kauto’s unbeaten Gold Cup winning campaign he beat Voy Por Ustedes in the Tingle Creek, who went on to claim the Queen Mother Champion Chase. Exotic Dancer, whom he beat at Kempton and Cheltenham, went on to land the Betfair Bowl in impressive fashion at Aintree.
Blinkers or not, Our Vic, who won a very good renewal of the Ryanair Chase at The Festival, would have been comprehensively beaten at Aintree had Kauto not made a serious blunder. He didn’t need the blinkers to beat a decent field in the Charlie Hall in 2006, either.
There’s only a handful of races for a three mile chaser who needs soft ground on a galloping, left-handed track. Grand National aside, Denman will probably compete in the same races year after year.
He’ll need three runs before the Gold Cup / National. It will be interesting to see if Findlay, who wants Denman to run in The National, decides to run the horse in the Gold Cup. The Tank’s aggressive style of running is not ideal for a tilt at the Gold Cup / National double.
Perhaps it is slightly premature to suggest that Denman will never match Kauto’s achievement. However, taking into consideration what I said about the limited options available to him, he’ll need to do something special to compile a record like Kauto Star.
Denman has never lost a steeplechase race. What on earth makes you think he is so limited?
I’ve never completely bought this "galloping track" stuff. What do they do at Kempton, fly around?
Denman has never lost a steeplechase race. What on earth makes you think he is so limited?
I’ve never completely bought this "gallopping track" stuff. What do they do at Kempton, fly around?
The fact that Denman will not run in the King George (probably never will) speaks volumes.
I certainly expect the best staying chaser in the country to compete in the premier race for three mile chasers.
And you think his trainer had nothing to do with him avoiding Kauto Star last year at Kempton? I don’t.
If he lined up for the King George this year, a completely unexposed, unbeaten Gold Cup winner, he’d start favourite without a doubt. And probably win.
You keep making the point that the KG is the premier 3m chase. Thats your opinion, and i would disagree.
And you think his trainer had nothing to do with him avoiding Kauto Star last year at Kempton? I don’t.
If he lined up for the King George this year, a completely unexposed, unbeaten Gold Cup winner, he’d start favourite without a doubt. And probably win.
You keep making the point that the KG is the premier 3m chase. Thats your opinion, and i would disagree.
He’d run if connections thought he could win the race. Which trainer / owner wouldn’t want to win the King George?
Findlay admitted he’d be mad to run the horse in the race.
Taking into consideration the Roll of Honour and tradition of the Kempton showpiece, then it certainly is the premier three mile chase in the National Hunt calendar.
And the Cheltenam Gold Cup has micky mouse tradition and is won by a load of noddies?
Have you borrowed Our Vics blinkers?
And the Cheltenam Gold Cup has micky mouse tradition and is won by a load of noddies?
Have you borrowed Our Vics blinkers?
The Cheltenham Gold Cup run is run over an extended three mile two furlongs.
And you think his trainer had nothing to do with him avoiding Kauto Star last year at Kempton? I don’t.
If he lined up for the King George this year, a completely unexposed, unbeaten Gold Cup winner, he’d start favourite without a doubt. And probably win.
You keep making the point that the KG is the premier 3m chase. Thats your opinion, and i would disagree.
I would agree with bosranic but am interested in what 3m chase you think is better?
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