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I think the point about Denman is that at this stage we don’t know how good he can become. He has a bit to find on the book with Kauto Star (although not a great deal imo), but he is still on an upward curve and there is every chance he can prove to be the better of the pair…
It could be that Denman has already hit his ceiling and will never quite make the 180 – ish horse that KS is. However, if one were asked which of the two might be capable of being rated the equal or superior of Desert Orchid (187 at his prime), then common sense suggests it would be Denman.
TDK
There might be a half a dozen horses in training every season that have the ‘potential’ to be the equal of Desert Orchid. However, only one of those over a thirty year period has actually realised that potential.
Where’s the common sense in suggesting that Denman is anything other than this year’s great white hope, when KS has already been there and done it – quite a few times, as well?I suppose what I am principally trying to point out is that beating Our Vic and Racing Demon as clearly as Kauto Star did today was no great surprise, even if the manner of his victory exceeded expectations. The amount he could have found today had he needed to is clearly subjective.
But let’s not assume that beating that pair handsomely automatically elevates Kauto Star from what we have long known him to be – one of the best horses of the modern era – to the best horse of the modern era.
He beat Racing Demon 3 lengths and a bit more than 12 months ago and Exotic Dancer (given an odd ride) 4.25 lengths further than 12 months ago, but we knew there had been something to spare that day.
I thought he definately had more to spare this time around Pru. Ok, there was a slight doubt about his staying ability back then and maybe he was ridden accordingly, but this was far more dominant than last years KG
His jumping has been a lot better last two starts Clivex imo, plus he wasn’t trying to take last fence home this year, so it should follow he’s gonna finish further ahead of a horse like Racing Demon and look more dominant than last year
race time on the same official going is 3.7secs slower though, which is interesting imo
Where’s the common sense in suggesting that Denman is anything other than this year’s great white hope
Great white hope
Nice one reet, made me chuckle anywayHowever, if one were asked which of the two might be capable of being rated the equal or superior of Desert Orchid (187 at his prime), then common sense suggests it would be Denman.
Who’s common sense!?!?!?
He isn’t the best chaser ever seen on what he has done though so let’s not pretend otherwise.
I dont think he is the best chaser ever, I have not seen them all….not half. But he is clearly a brilliant chaser and your description of the "credit he deserves" is pretty lame in comparison to Denman who you write about in terms that suggest he is close to Kauto Star when the form book says he is not.
To be honest, at the moment, I couldn’t be in the least bit arsed about ratings, what he beat or how well the other horses ran or didn’t run.
That was was a bl**dy impressive run from a classy horse, who has finally won me over …… I just want to savour the moment. Respect to the animal and his connections.
He’s never going to race Arkle or Dessie so any debate about relative ratings is academic and IMO a waste of time, the past is the past, lets hail our current hero. .
That’s absolutely my view. I don’t care for comparisons, I just want to enjoy Kauto Star for what he is, a brilliant race horse who’s magnificent to watch.
He has pi…ed all over just about everything put in front of him. Class. I just enjoyed that race to watch with no financial involvement for a change.
It was quite brilliant.The other day i get him at 4/5 and i did:) Was a bit better than the overall price, but to be honest, Kauto is truly
AMAZING!
Gold Cup 2008 and 2009??I think the point about Denman is that at this stage we don’t know how good he can become. He has a bit to find on the book with Kauto Star (although not a great deal imo), but he is still on an upward curve
As he’s only a near-8yo is it possible Kauto Star is too?
Two factors today suggest to me he may be: firstly the ease with which he travelled through the race amongst high class horses was to my eyes extraordinary; secondly his jumping was polished throughout and had a more dextrous, rhythmic economy about it than hitherto.
So perhaps – and from the sport’s point of view hopefully – a horse still not at the zenith of his learning curve.
In assigning a rating I’d ignore Exotic Dancer (new tactics, stable sick) and Racing Demon (non-stayer) and use Our Vic who I’m prepared to credit with reproducing his Charlie Hall high of 171. So given the ease with which he won despite edging left over the last few fences I have no hesitation in awarding KS 183+ which ain’t a mile off Dessie
Viscerally, his run today was astonishing and sweat-inducing; it’s getting to the point when I may have to utter the dread phrases "I’ve never seen better" and "a true great" come seasons-end.
And to think I nearly wrote him off as just another precocious French-bred to go the wrong way after his second at Aintree
Savour him (and Denman)
absolutely brilliant performance. But I wouldn’t take 6-4 for gold cup. I will wait until close before the race before to see if he lines up.
My impression is, Racing Demon being a non stayer with known 3 mile plus horses Our Vic and ED within 2 length should tell us those two have probably not run to their best and therefore Kauto’s visually impressive performance is not what it first seems, the 3.7 seconds slower time than last year, also adds to this imo
Don’t mean to be a party pooper, but thats the take of Charlie D
Every race at Kempton today was slower than 12 months ago.
Going descriptions are not only of questionable accuracy, the small number of categories used would be a crude way of measuring such matters even if they were spot on.
I think the point about Denman is that at this stage we don’t know how good he can become. He has a bit to find on the book with Kauto Star (although not a great deal imo), but he is still on an upward curve and there is every chance he can prove to be the better of the pair…
It could be that Denman has already hit his ceiling and will never quite make the 180 – ish horse that KS is. However, if one were asked which of the two might be capable of being rated the equal or superior of Desert Orchid (187 at his prime), then common sense suggests it would be Denman.
Sorry, TDK, but this just doesn’t wash, mate.
How is there ‘every chance’ that Denman will prove better than Kauto Star? I’d suggest that it is ‘a small chance’ that Denman will prove the better of the pair, purely by dint of the fact that Kauto Star is one of the best chasers of the past 30 years. Indeed, at this stage, we probably don’t know quite how good Kauto Star can become either.
As for your ‘Desert Orchid/common sense’ argument, this sounds more like wishful thinking on your part.
Kauto Star has already shown the kind of versatility in the highest of classes reminiscent of Desert Orchid, and is, at most, a mere handful of lbs shy of what Dessie achieved at the very height of his powers.
Denman, for all that he was impressive in the Hennessy, isn’t even on the "Dessie radar" yet, and has it all to prove in that respect.
You don’t have a black-spot about Kauto Star, do you? You seem to under-rate him somewhat.
My impression is, Racing Demon being a non stayer with known 3 mile plus horses Our Vic and ED within 2 length should tell those two have probably not run to their best and therefore Kauto’s visually impressive performance is not what it first seems, the 3.7 seconds slower time than last year, also adds to this imo
Don’t mean to be a party pooper, but thats the take of Charlie D
Racing Demon has run to his best mark twice over three miles. Taken on a line through Racing Demon, Our Vic has run to around 170. Exotic Dancer below his best I’ll give you that but probably similar to last season.
To put in to perspective three mile chasers to run to 170 (off top of my head) : Kauto Star, Exotic Dancer, Turpin Green (Gold Cup, fluke?), Beef Or Salmon, The Listener, Our Vic, Denman
Two mile chasers to run to 170 : None, closest being Voy Por Ustedes on around 168 / 169.
Thats what my ratings tell me anyway. The staying division is strong, the two mile division isn’t. Look at the way Kauto blew away Voy Por Ustedes last season over two miles.
Every race at Kempton today was slower than 12 months ago.
Going descriptions are not only of questionable accuracy, the small number of categories used would be a crude way of measuring such matters even if they were spot on.
Behave yerself, i was on a roll
My impression is, Racing Demon being a non stayer with known 3 mile plus horses Our Vic and ED within 2 length should tell those two have probably not run to their best and therefore Kauto’s visually impressive performance is not what it first seems, the 3.7 seconds slower time than last year, also adds to this imo
Don’t mean to be a party pooper, but thats the take of Charlie D
Racing Demon has run to his best mark twice over three miles. Taken on a line through Racing Demon, Our Vic has run to around 170. Exotic Dancer below his best I’ll give you that but probably similar to last season.
To put in to perspective three mile chasers to run to 170 (off top of my head) : Kauto Star, Exotic Dancer, Turpin Green (Gold Cup, fluke?), Beef Or Salmon, The Listener, Our Vic, Denman
Two mile chasers to run to 170 : None, closest being Voy Por Ustedes on around 168 / 169.
Thats what my ratings tell me anyway. The staying division is strong, the two mile division isn’t. Look at the way Kauto blew away Voy Por Ustedes last season over two miles.
Flash , just my opinion m8, but i don’t think you can say a non stayer has run to his best and so you can’t say Our Vic has to his best due to the proximity of RD
Anyway, all this is subjective and like most i do get these things wrong
My impression is, Racing Demon being a non stayer with known 3 mile plus horses Our Vic and ED within 2 length should tell those two have probably not run to their best and therefore Kauto’s visually impressive performance is not what it first seems, the 3.7 seconds slower time than last year, also adds to this imo
Don’t mean to be a party pooper, but thats the take of Charlie D
Racing Demon has run to his best mark twice over three miles. Taken on a line through Racing Demon, Our Vic has run to around 170. Exotic Dancer below his best I’ll give you that but probably similar to last season.
To put in to perspective three mile chasers to run to 170 (off top of my head) : Kauto Star, Exotic Dancer, Turpin Green (Gold Cup, fluke?), Beef Or Salmon, The Listener, Our Vic, Denman
Two mile chasers to run to 170 : None, closest being Voy Por Ustedes on around 168 / 169.
Thats what my ratings tell me anyway. The staying division is strong, the two mile division isn’t. Look at the way Kauto blew away Voy Por Ustedes last season over two miles.
Flash , just my opinion m8, but i don’t think you can say a non stayer has run to his best and so you can’t say Our Vic has to his best due to the proximity of RD
Anyway, all this is subjective and like most i do get these things wrong
What makes you certain Racing Demon is a non stayer?
He just isn’t quite good enough to beat the best.
Nice one reet, made me chuckle anyway
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