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Nobody is saying that every horse can be turned into a superstar Charlie, we’re merely pointing out that whereas horses reach their full potential and maintain a high level of form (relative to them) with the likes of Paul Nicholls, they peak and deteriorate very quickly with O’Neill. He has had numerous high-class flat horses to work with and has managed to do very little with them. Of course, as TDK pointed out about 500 pages ago, they could have just been poor horses for jumping (in which case the problems at Jackdaws are hugely unfortunate), but given the money JP McManus and co. have invested, and the horses they have purchased, that is difficult to believe.
Horses like Kauto Star and Denman are few and far between, and training them would most probably be fairly easy for any experienced trainer, but when you consider the talent – or even potential – he’s had alongside horses like Rhinestone Cowboy (the most naturally gifted hurdler I’ve ever seen) .
I would have to disagree with you very strongly on Rhinestone Cowboy? Jonjo did absolute wonders with that horse who was no more than very good and moderate by Champion Hurdle standards..wasn’t fancied an inch in the race by Jonjo who thought he simply wasn’t good enough. Won a lot of races with the horse and you can ask no more than that.
Picking out horses that have disappointed is easy picking out horses that have ran beyond what one could have ever hoped for goes unnoticed and can backfire on a trainer.
Unless you know the real truth about the animal judging as you are could be unfair without you knowing it. It could be he has done wonders, like he did with RC, when the truth is the horse wasn’t that good to start with.
The horse gets found out at top level and all of a sudden the trainer is useless.I’m not picking on you mate it’s just this whole thread is bugging me
14 times champion Trainer Martin Pipe ruined how many horses? Novices winning 3 and 4 hurdle races and never seen again…..how many horses went through that mans hands in his quest to be the number 1…………he went through horses like a knife through butter ….a lot of racing people privately despised the man……I’d have Jonjo, who is known to love his horses, look after my horses well before him and if that’s the sort of thing you have to do to become CT Jonjo would rather not have it.
He’ll be happy knocking up his 100 plus winners a season and he’ll be here for a long time to come.
Another point I thought I had already posted but can’t find (geez was I that drunk)
For those of you that can remember cast your minds back to the late 70’s John Douglas fell out with Harry Bell. I believe he was angry because Harry pulled of a touch with a horse called Bel Canto and never gave him the nod or something like that.long time ago.
Anyway Harry had done really well with Rubstic and had said 2 years before he would win the Grand National some day.
Douglas took him to John Leadbetter…….John was a lovely guy but to call him a great trainer would be the biggest exaggeration in history. I went to his yard on several occasions along with Harry’s daughter Margaret who loved that horse. The yard was as basic as you could ever imagine and made the likes of Rhona Olivers look like Buckingham Palace.
Rubstic made John Leadbetter he did not make the horse. John is now the former trainer which speaks for itself.
Ginger McCain IMO couldn’t train a pig to be dirty as lovable as the man is.
He then goes and wins the National again albeit his son was probably running the operation by then……..I don’t know about you guys but If I seen the name G. McCain’s name next to a horse I gave it a wide berth when it came to bettingMy granny could have trained Red Rum in fact she might even have won on him
The point is if you don’t have the owners and the horses you have nothing.
Horses to a huge extent in many cases make trainers not the other way round.Jonjo has had hundreds of winners that might not have won a thing elsewhere. I have been racing with him and watched 2 horses run at Sedgefield and no one was more suprised than him when one won at 20/1 and the other was 2nd at 33/1. He doesn’t run around telling everyone he’s the greatest he just gets the head down and gets on with it the best he knows how and sometimes his hard work pays of to such an extent even he can’t believe it……….to say the fact he has had 82 winners means nothing is total nonsense. That is an awesome achievement for any trainer.
PN is a great trainer but so is Jonjo………these guys should be judged on what they are winning with and not what they are winning……both can take a mule and win a seller and that’s tougher than looking after a talent like Kauto star will ever be……….There are reasons, I won’t go into, that Jonjo will never get the support Nicholls has and on the otherhand certain owners would rather have Jonjo. It’s just a fact of life.
If were lucky enough to meet PN and ask him what he thought of Jonjo my guess is he would sing his praises to the high heavens.
Seeing as JP has spread hid trainer net even more with Franchoek- Alan King, how long before Paul Nicholls has any, or is that going too far??
Nichols does have a couple of JP horses (names escape…) im sure
I have been racing with him and watched 2 horses run at Sedgefield and no one was more suprised than him when one won at 20/1 and the other was 2nd at 33/1
Does this sentence tell us rather a lot?
Well..im suprised you asked that, but im not sure that it is a credit to the trainer when he is taken completely by suprise when his runners perform particularly well. You might have hoped that they would have a better grip on their chances?
Naturally every trainer will have these occasions, but thats not the point…
FOF clearly likes the man (and why not..)and "goes racing with him" which perhaps blinds his judgement somewhat
Clive,
I actually think it is the point, every trainer will have a moment like this, yet you are very derogatory towards O’Neill and are extremely unbalanced in your argument throughout this thread. Take one of your trainers you have said you admire on the flat, say, John Gosden, imagine his surprise when Raven’s Pass won first time out at Yarmouth. Gosden had three in the race with Jimmy Fortune (stable jockey) on Copywriter who faired worst of the three on the day. Raven’s Pass is now second favourite for the 2000 Guineas.
So it is the point, for all of the errors of judgements you can pin on O’Neill, you are very easily able to ignore your own favoured trainers.
JohnJ.
You are missing the point entirely
I know full well that every trainer will have these moments. I said that
What i was saying is that it is a strange argument to put forward as an example of his greatness
As for "derogatory" towards O’Neill, I will only say that its a helluva a lot less than some of what ive heard (and take with a pinch of salt) and whats been said on here too. Its an opinion…take it or leave it
Clive,
To be fair to FoF, he never said O’Neill was great, you should read his post. You say Nicholls and King are clear and concise, yet they have made hurge errors of judgement in the past like anybody else dealing with equine talent. And I am quite aware that you are not the only one being derogatory towards O’Neill. And as for your opinion, if your willing to express it, do so, this is what the forum is for my good fellow
.JohnJ
Nichols does have a couple of JP horses (names escape…) im sure
I can find no trace of them.
Well..im suprised you asked that, but im not sure that it is a credit to the trainer when he is taken completely by suprise when his runners perform particularly well. You might have hoped that they would have a better grip on their chances?
Naturally every trainer will have these occasions, but thats not the point…
FOF clearly likes the man (and why not..)and "goes racing with him" which perhaps blinds his judgement somewhat
Clive one of the most common things with punters they think trainers have a magic wand and think they can conjure up winners at will. All a trainer can tell you with an animal of average or below average ability is whether their blood count is right, the have worked ok or if they ate up ok. That type of horse runs on his merits, he’s simply not good enough to be stopping (not that Jonjo would
)) and are the type you could never bet with confidence………..if it were not the case we wouldn’t have any 33/1 winners and only favourites would be winning.So basically you can hope as much as you like but life is not that simple.
Incidentally, one of the horses was I was talking about was called Doughty Rebel he was beaten a head or neck by Saskia’s Reprieve in a really bad handicap and was carrying just over 10st……memory is better than I thought
He had an OR of about 16 and I remember distinctly the race was 35 seconds slower than average………he was a typical example of what I just wrote above and would be best described as "fookin useless"……….It was a miracle he ran that well and a compliment to the trainers talent that he did.That is only one of the dozens and dozens of winners Jonjo has had like him….BTW The fact I know the man and he was very kind to me has got everything to do with it……..Am I biased? you bet your ass I am………am I putting forward a decent logical case to defend him? You be the judge of that. I can only give my opinion and if someone thinks Jonjo is useless that’s their privilege. Not my fault if the more sensible people on here think they’re nuts
when I first became seriously interested in racing I didn’t realise that trainers actually bought horses; I thought that owners bought them and then chose which trainer to use. Surely success is a combination of finding good horses, having owners prepared to pay for good ones, knowing where to place them and very importantly having good loyal staff and experienced work riders.Does JP send horses to Jonjo or does he have a say in which horses are purchased? If it’s the former it must make it more difficult for him. Also I was told that some trainers are more swayed by the demands of the horses owners as to which races the horse goes for…
)) and are the type you could never bet with confidence………..if it were not the case we wouldn’t have any 33/1 winners and only favourites would be winning.
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