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Racing runs in families; if not racing families (white) then other horse sports (white) or farming (white).
You need land and owners to train and nobody is just going to hand you a hundred expensive acres unless they’re related to you. I don’t think there are many stables out the back of car showrooms any more- urban or suburban land is too valuable for that.The people from non horsey/farming backgrounds (the likes of Tony McCoy, Paul Nicholls, Gordon Elliott) tend to to have started riding out for local trainers quite young- too young to drive- so grew up within pushbike range of a trainer ie rural Ireland or Britain (white; and these youngsters tended to be male as parents were presumably a bit less worried about their teenage sons being sexually assaulted when hanging round quiet stables or travelling to the races with grown men without mummy around than they would have been about daughters; and the trainers (mostly male) probably less worried about being accused of anything).
If you’re a trainer taking on an apprentice or conditional, you’re more likely to take somebody who was racing ponies or hunting with your own kids, or the children of your racing mates, than somebody just off the bus from London or Birmingham who has never sat on a horse. If you arrive on the bus at the age of 16 to work as a groom and learn to sit on a horse, you’ll have a lot of catching up to do compared with somebody who was falling off a hairy pony as a primary school kid and unless you are exceptionally naturally talented, ultra driven and confident enough to put yourself forward- ie a freak of nature- probably it’s too late and the opportunity to race ride or be assistant trainer will be gone and you will be stuck mucking out.
If you have no horsey background and haven’t been a jockey or assistant trainer, then owners will be pretty hard to come by if you want to train, even if you somehow get the land. I don’t see how it will ever be anything other than a fairly closed shop.
Don’t think anyone is talking about getting the same percentage of each race as the population of Britain. It’s just about improving the very poor numbers we currently have – which are extremely poor. It’s not about telling someone where they should work either. It’s similar to an employer getting a careers adviser to put forward a job he/she had not considered. It’s not that the adviser is telling that person what to do, it’s just an option. That person is then free to choose. Possibly going on to apply for, get and thoroughly enjoy the career.
You put forward a good arguement for why the sport is dominated by whites, Greenasgrass. Yes, to a great extent it will always be dominated by whites, but hopefully there should still be room for more ethnic minorities than there currently is.
Like the vast majority here; I don’t think there is institutionalised racism in Racing. However, that does not mean we shouldn’t encourage ethnic minorities – who may have been put off by a percieved unwelcomeness – to go for jobs if having the individual skills necessary to do the job well. If we do not, then it is Racing that is losing out. The more people qualified for a job that apply, the more likely it is to find a quality applicant.
Value Is EverythingThat’s rubbish Joe.
If we took that view generally, we would be pissing money away, potentially for no gain.
That is a BAD business model, which would be laughed out of any boardroom in the land.
At the heart of this is the fact that people are trying to put a fix on something that there is zero evidence to suggest actually exists.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Is Ginger’s list supposed to impress us. Plenty of those names have been pilloried on here before.
Why is Guy Disney on the board?
What’s the difference between Guy Disney and Gingertipster? Guy knows about racial diversity and Ginger Disnae?
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
>> It’s just about improving the very poor numbers we currently have – which are extremely poor…<<
Ginger,
so what is the reference point – the figure or range – at which poor numbers stop being poor ?
when does underrepresentation become representation become overrepresentation ?
and what is the reasoning that makes those the reference points ?
This thread seems to be somewhat tainted now…The Whole thing Should be deleted.
I’ve never understood why people say this.I presume they just want endless threads on whether two-season wonders will stay nine-and-a-half furlongs or ten.
Mike
good posts by wit and greengrass but Steve caution is right. this guardian reading bollcks is a total waste of resources
Wit’s post was excellent: ‘wish I’d written that’ as they say
One of the better threads this: should be archived, certainly not deleted
people calling other people racists (when there not) and people proving there not racist, talking about a point that really has no weight to it, theres racists everywhere, from football to badminton to horse racing, aslong as the sport isnt racist collectively and people from different races dont get rejected if they do decide to get involved, then whats the problem, is there any factual evidence of this sport rejecting anyone that isnt white? The biggest investors in the sport are whom?
Reading people saying another person is racist doesnt make for a great thread, reading botchy picking out rekindling for the MC at mouthwatering odds however does, best i stick to the two season wonders mike
>> It’s just about improving the very poor numbers we currently have – which are extremely poor…<<
Cant the numbers just be poor because those people just arent interested this side of the world, so what is it were actually improving?
I have not seen any solid numbers on this thread.
It is very difficult to put forward a persuasive argument about a numbers problem when no useful information about “the what” and “the why” is available. So instead of persuasive agrument we have assertion and opinion, which may well be entertaining (and sometimes harmful), but does not increase the chance of identifying and solving a potential problem.
If the BHA or other groups feel there is anecdotal evidence of a problem then they should find out – what are the percentages of the various sub-groups of the main diversity groups (gender, ethnicity, disability, etc.) who do actually work in, or are suppliers to, or customers of, the racing industry?
If any of those percentages are “poor”, then ask members of that diversity group why they do not engage more with the racing industry.
Then give the numbers to Ginger to analyse.
The answers could be fascinating. If they are racegoers, among the possibilties are: too many obnoxious people, the toilets are not diverse enough, the food is not diverse enough, and there are far too many races run at less than two miles and at too long an interval.
Trying to attract people of diverse ethnicity is perfectly laudable but only if they are part of an attempt to attract * all* people into the job. From what I see and hear ,racing is struggling for staff – however, there are only so many changes that can be made to working with horses.They will always need 7 days a week & many hours care – they will always require a degree of skill to manage . I don’t know what the wages are now so I cannot comment on that , but , it is one of the few areas that changes can be made.
If people , any people, are not attracted by racing as it is , in any area, that can not , in my view , be satisfactorily altered.
As far as “mucking out ” as perceived as a less than desirable career is quite wrong.Being a stable lad is , in my experience , a very satisfying, exciting & fulfilling life. I took great pride in my work & my horses ( good or bad ). Much of that comes from having a Guv’nor who will invest lads in terms of inspiring confidence and by giving them chances to learn . This depends greatly on the willingness of the lad to take advantage of this. However , this is one misconception that the PR people should rectify. Even so , it will not appeal to many people. One thing the “media” could do perhaps , is concentrate on lad’s lives and what they get out of the job. All we hear at present is how wonderful jockeys are. The fact that lads break the horses in , they educate ( make ) them , they care for them everyday, they ride most of the work /schooling on them , are all vital contributions to the game and are rarely given more than lip service.
Even with that though , I doubt that , in todays world with different ideas about work that young people have , I doubt that much will change regarding staffing levels.That’s a very middle-class, middle aged and mainly white committee you’ve pasted up above Ginge.
An undertaking such as this would have been much better served by having it substantially occupied by the groups about whom they are talking about or purporting to represent. That panel in its present incarnation smacks of another poor world task for rich people to complete.
Great post Wit.
I agree completely Cav. The people on that list have , as far as I can tell, very little real life experience at the sharp end of racing. They speak from one remove & that means they can only really speak of the perceptions of glamour and money involved in being a jockey. It reminds me of when Marcus Sieff was brought in to run the racing charities – IJF and Racing Welfare. Mrs Oxley ,a trainer’s wife did the job for lads and was taken off that job. Mr Sieff brought his own retinue. I asked once for some advice – she came to see me and told me that she could only see me under the auspices of the IJF and that I qualified because I had held a license as a boy. Not good .
When lads lead up they are invisible . Someone might mention their name from time to time but that is paying lip service to their place in racing. No one mentions , unless they’ve done a winner, what they might have done to get their horse to the racecourse. That is often a huge achievement on its own.
In some , many perhaps, ways racing is its own worst enemy and is reaping what it has sown over the years.As I understand it that list is looking in to all diversity, Cav/Greektown; not just racial. So some will be on there because they are women, have you any objection to that? If they could get more working class and younger people on there may be it would be better, but perhaps they’re the lesser known ones? May be they need older people because a lot of the ethnic minorities that love racing but don’t go racing are middle aged/older? To assume they can’t look in to the percieved problem is imo unfair, it’s how they go about the job that matters, not who they are. tbh I haven’t heard of some of them; but have met a couple – Mottershead and Stevenson and would trust them to come to the right conclusions. Don’t see why Apiafi, Varma and Persad should be excluded, they should be able to show some insight in to racial diversity.
This is a quote from one of them that Jonibake originally used in the linked thread:
Rishi Persad: – “I used to go to a betting shop in north London which was like a West Indies community group with people from Barbados, Grenada etc, but not too many of them felt they were welcome at a race course, there is a perception that needs to change. Even when I would tell them that there was nothing to be intimidated by, there was still a reluctance. A lot more can be done and there is no getting away from the fact that the lack of diversity is obvious, the sport is hugely Caucasian and when you do get people from other cultures attending racing they stand out because it isn’t a regular occurrence.”
Am sure part of the job will be to ask the relevent ethnic minorities, it won’t be just their own experiences.
Who would you rather be on the list?
Value Is EverythingIt’s the cats I feel sorry for.
It’s the people of Aberdeen I feel sorry for.
Away and read.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
>> It’s just about improving the very poor numbers we currently have – which are extremely poor…<<
Ginger,
so what is the reference point – the figure or range – at which poor numbers stop being poor ?
when does underrepresentation become representation become overrepresentation ?
and what is the reasoning that makes those the reference points ?
I am no expert, Wit. All I can see when going racing in Britain is an extreme lack of racial diversity (other than stable lads)… And that is in sharp contrast to in bookmakers shops all around the country. So ethnic minorities in Britain are interested in Racing, they just don’t go racing and it appears not interested in jobs in the industry… If that were true in any industry it would be wrong for the boss not to look in to whether something can be done to change things. The question “why” must be asked, if it wasn’t then that would be seen as Racing not wanting to attract diversity.
Greenasgrass made a good post as to why Racing in GB and I is dominated by whites, diversity will never be the same as most other sports and never the same as Britain as a country. I have a question for you. Why is not having a reference point reason not to try and improve the current appalling diversity levels? That strikes me as giving up. Success will be able to be seen with our own eyes if more ethnic minorities are seen on the racecourse and beyond.
Value Is Everything
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