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Irish Hurdlers Handicap Rating

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  • #12342
    apracing
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    • Total Posts 3329

    I don’t want to rerun the debate on how these are calculated and the differences between here and ireland, but that known difference seems to me to be producing duff information for punters.

    Take the example today of Cooksgrove Lady, running in the last at Stratford. She is shown in the Racing Post as having an official handicap rating of 115.

    But is that :

    a) Her current Irish handicap mark, in which case we know that she’d be running off at least 125 in a UK handicap.

    b) Her current UK hurdle handicap mark, which I doubt as I find it hard to believe a three time winner would still be that low

    c) The mark she was allocated the last time she was entered in a UK handicap, since when she has won two novice hurdles under penalties with considerable ease.

    I suspect that c) is the correct interpretation and that the 115 was recorded on the Post database when she was given that mark a few weeks back and hasn’t been updated since.

    It’s harsh to blame the Post for this, as the BHA don’t publish the revised marks for Irish trained horses, even though we’re told they maintain their own handicap for them.

    Any punter taking the information in the Post as gospel is entitled to think that Cooksgrove Lady is badly in at the weights with some of her rivals here, and if I’m right, that’s a misleading conclusion.

    With Irish hurdlers now a common feature of the jumping scene here, isn’t it about time the BHA took the initiative and made their figures available to the public in the same way that they do for all locally trained horses.

    I also wonder how the Irish trainers cope with entries for handicap hurdles when they don’t know what rating their horse will be given before they enter. Or is there a way they can find out in advance?

    I notice that Gordon Elliot has entered one of his, Grand Opera, for two handicaps at Bangor on Saturday. One of those races is a 0-105, the other is a 0-145 – which suggests he has no idea what rating the horse will be given!

    I will contact the Post and ask where the 115 rating comes from and whether they think it’s acurate and pass on any response.

    AP

    #243355
    Prufrock
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    • Total Posts 2081

    Newton Abbot, not Stratford.

    #243372
    Gerald
    Member
    • Total Posts 4293

    I can usually work out what is going on, but that is because I mainly look at handicappers. A bit more difficult for horses that haven’t been running in handicaps.

    The official rating at the top of the horse’s form page is usually the Irish rating for Irish horses.

    For each race, the OR alongside it is usually the OR in the country the race is being held in.

    In this case it seems that Cookgrove Lady’s Official British Rating is currently 115, and was also 115 for her past two victories. This is feasible, because her maximum RPR has been 111.

    #243373
    Pompete
    Member
    • Total Posts 2391

    According to the latest updated ratings (05-08-09) on the BHA’s website – Cooksgrove Lady hasn’t been allocated an Offical Rating.

    I agree in suspecting option C to be the answer, the mark then being withdrawn – but when this was I don’t know and don’t know of anyway of finding out. She has certainly never run in a UK handicap.

    #243374
    robnorth
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    • Total Posts 6226

    According to the latest ratings on the Irish Turf Club website Cooksgrove Lady is rated 116. From recent experience the UK figures tend to be around 10-14lbs higher so it’s likely she would be rated in the high 120s so Alan’s guess of 125 wouldn’t be far off.

    Rob

    #243376
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    Considering she gave 7lbs and a 7l beating to a 112 rated Pokanoket (who appears to have run to form).on her latest outing, the 115 could only be her earlier Irish mark.
    Dificult to believe, in these days of compturised handicapping, that a horse can’t be allocated a new OR until it is entered into a handicap?

    #243378
    robnorth
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6226

    reet hard

    It’s not quite so unbelievable given that any eligible Irish horse could be entered in a handicap this side of the Irish Sea and that the current scales don’t coincide. From the UK Handicapper’s point of view he either gives all Irish handicappers a mark, which is much more work than he needs to do, or he allots a mark when required as is currently the case. It would be much easier if the Irish Turf Club and the BHA reconciled their figures to give one scale. It might take a period to iron out the differences but it’s not an impossible task. Of course there’s always the possibility that there is or could be ’empire protection’ from either or both sides.

    Rob

    #243380
    Pompete
    Member
    • Total Posts 2391

    It does say on the RP website the OH is the latest published – so if option C is correct it is sort of right but then again not :?

    #243381
    davidjohnson
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    • Total Posts 4491

    reet hard

    From the UK Handicapper’s point of view he either gives all Irish handicappers a mark, which is much more work than he needs to do, or he allots a mark when required as is currently the case.

    As I understand it, the BHA currently publicly state that they do handicap all jumps races in Ireland and have figures for all horses, they just don’t publish them.

    I’m happy to be put straight on that if I’m incorrect.

    #243384
    Imperial Call
    Member
    • Total Posts 2184

    reet hard

    From the UK Handicapper’s point of view he either gives all Irish handicappers a mark, which is much more work than he needs to do, or he allots a mark when required as is currently the case.

    As I understand it, the BHA currently publicly state that they do handicap all jumps races in Ireland and have figures for all horses, they just don’t publish them.

    I’m happy to be put straight on that if I’m incorrect.

    According to what Noel O’Brien was saying at one of the Cheltenham preview nights, that is correct David.

    #243387
    apracing
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3329

    Can anyone think of a good reason why the BHA shouldn’t include the figures for irish horses on their existing public database?

    Clearly from what Rob has found about her Irish mark, its suggests the handicapper there is reacting to runs in the UK.

    AP

    #243388
    robnorth
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6226

    Daivd is sopt on and the relevant passage from the BHA’s Handicapping guide explains the situation with horses from outside Great Britain.

    International

    We allow horses from abroad to run in handicaps as long as they have qualified in the usual way and we have enough evidence on which to base a handicap rating. This is true of all races except for handicaps restricted to 2yos.

    In order to do this we maintain close links with Handicappers from all the major racing nations. Together we make sure that we are working to similar standards and that we understand the levels and meanings of each other’s ratings. The rating off which a foreign horse runs here, though, is always ultimately the decision of the BHA Handicapper.

    Throughout the year, the Flat Handicappers exchanges with their foreign counterparts ratings for every top race run just about anywhere in the world. The Jump Handicappers rate all performances from Ireland and many from France. And they work closely with counterparts from every other country that sends horses to race here.

    There are conferences every year when the Handicappers meet with those international colleagues.

    It had occured to me that horses could run in handicaps after qualifying through French races. It seems the BHA Handicapper has this covered, at least to a certain degree.

    Rob

    Rob

    #243389
    davidjohnson
    Member
    • Total Posts 4491

    There seems to be some agreement in place Alan that the different juristictions will not publish ratings for horses that are trained elsewhere. It even extends to the point that ratings of horses trained by Saeed bin Suroor are not published during the winter when they are registered in Dubai under Saeed bin Suroor, UAE.

    #243397
    apracing
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3329

    Reply from the Post :

    Thank you for your email.

    115 is Cooksgrove Lady’s official handicap mark in the UK. We do not have any reason to question the accuracy of this figure. It’s last two outings were used as ‘marker’ races by the BHA to assess the horse’s handicap mark. You will notice that the ratings are in italics which denotes the fact that the horse received a mark in a non-handicap.

    We hope you find this informtion useful.

    Not very – I find it complacent and I’ve no idea what the reference to italics means, as I can see no sign of italics on the website or in the paper.

    AP

    #243399
    Pompete
    Member
    • Total Posts 2391

    AP, if you click the BHA icon it will show the horses last 6 OH ratings this is where it is in italics.

    As for the rest of that reply…well..

    #243400
    davidjohnson
    Member
    • Total Posts 4491

    It had occured to me that horses could run in handicaps after qualifying through French races. It seems the BHA Handicapper has this covered, at least to a certain degree.

    To a certain degree a key point when you look at performances from horses like Peter Pole on their British debut.

    #243410
    Irish Stamp
    Member
    • Total Posts 3177

    It had occured to me that horses could run in handicaps after qualifying through French races. It seems the BHA Handicapper has this covered, at least to a certain degree.

    To a certain degree a key point when you look at performances from horses like Peter Pole on their British debut.

    Indeed – particularly if they run at tracks like Compeigne, Lyon Parilly, Les-Lion-D’Angers ie. non-mainstream courses. I’d imagine the BHA handicapper would rate the races at Auteuil and Enghien-Soisy and maybe the big winter meets at Cagnes-Sur-Mer and Pau but not the others.

    Races at the smaller tracks (where Peter Pole ran) are probably done on an "as required" basis rather than rating every race on the off chance that one horse from it runs here.

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