- This topic has 65 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 10 months ago by
.
- Posts
I also think that it has lessened a lot in recent times drone. Wider coverage has mitigated the supposed rivalry (there is more between Mullins and Elliot than between Mullins and Henderson surely?).
I think wexfords first two points are very good but as for grade ones, these things go in cycles. The very best trainers on both sides have their unique strengths and would all probably get the best of the top talent in perhaps slightly different ways
I also find the coverage nauseating. Discussed Cheltenham with other Irish horse people during the week, and the topic never arose. Wealthy businessmen are notoriously fickle, and their horses could end up anywhere. An ‘English’ winner might be bred, owned, trained and ridden by an Irish person, and vice versa. There will be much trumpeting and back slapping amongst the media here, but nothing has changed for most of us.
I’m a proud Irishman, but I find the nationalism tiresome; the horses don’t know which country they come from.
Yes, just like this nationalism thing in rugby. After all, you don’t need to be English to play for England, just live in the country for 3 years. Same for Ireland. Quite a few of the English squad weren’t born in England, same for a few of the Irish squad. Any of the players on the English squad could be playing for Ireland in 3 years! So who cares who wins later, we should just enjoy it for the joy of the game and individual performances, nothing to do with England vs Ireland.
So we just give up Joe? My point is that Britain has the best festival, the biggest race and should do more to excel.
I’m not much bothered from a trophy hunting or nationalistic viewpoint. I’m interested mostly in what it means to punters and how they can adjust.
But I’m fascinated by what the Irish are doing and how they are doing it. I mentioned on another thread, it’s not just Mullins and Elliott. R Power seemed very confident post-Gold Cup that they’d take the last race too which they did. This a yard which struggles to turn out 50 winners a year yet can come to the Festival with high confidence in a handicap.
The Wexfordman appears to have a good point in that the pure numbers are bound to affect matters. But I wonder too if the much more lax view taken by the Irish authorities regarding horses not running on their merits could have some bearing on matters?
A one-off perhaps, but it struck me as very odd that Elliott was allowed to bring Cause of Causes over for two spins on the X Country course on non-racedays. On such an unusual course, that, for my money, is offering one competitor a very significant advantage. Who approved that?
Anyway, I think there is something more to this than the bare quality of the horses and the quirks of handicapping. What that ‘something’ is, Lord knows.
Has anyone got the year by year totals….?
I’m sure it’s a case of swings and roundaboutsCharles Darwin to conquer the World
There is another possible reason.
Three Irish yards all suddenly hit exceptional form all at the same time and couldn’t have timed it better.
Irish water/turf must have more minerals in mid March.
Sorry Ginge, but the top British yards like Nicholls, King, Jonjo (I never thought too much of him), Pipe, Hobbs and so on seem train and buy horses like they did ten years ago. Can’t imagine how no superstar horse has been bought by British owners or trainers in the past 4-5 years. Everything decent from France goes to Ireland first. The only British exception is Nicky Henderson who can win 2m G1 hurdles and 3m G1 chases.
The Nicholls form has regressed from year to year. The past couple of years he had horses that could win at least a handicap at the Festival, this year it was only the Foxhunters with horses that used to be rated 20 lbs higher.
Tizzard, extremely overrated, doesn’t know what he is talking about. After yesterday’s GC his son Joe still thought that Cue Card wasn’t beaten when he fell. What race was he watching???Can’t agree with that at all. For a start, are you really privy to the training methods of all those trainers? And what is Mullins doing that Hobbs etc isn’t day to day? Nothing I would happily guess”
I would be also be very happy if I had bought thsitlecrack altior of defi. Who wouldn’t
Can’t agree with that at all. For a start, are you really privy to the training methods of all those trainers? And what is Mullins doing that Hobbs etc isn’t day to day? Nothing I would happily guess”
I would be also be very happy if I had bought thsitlecrack altior of defi. Who wouldn’t
But what is it that the Irish seem to have so much strength in depth and the British don’t?
And why do the above mentioned trainers have so many dry spells for that many years? There must be something that Mullins, Elliott or Henderson do better or different than the rest.Dan Skelton is another example: he’s got very decent horses, but they only win at minor tracks. Okay, he might be able to place them very well. Nothing wrong with that. But why doesn’t he have anything decent for the Festival?
Where to start?
The British yards no longer have the owners with deep pockets.
Nicholls is an object lesson. A lot of his big owners of 10-20 years ago have died out and not been replaced. David Johnson died, the Stewarts greatly reduced their interest, don’t think Jim Lewis has horses now, or Clive Smith. Is Graham Roach still involved? A key factor in his decline also seemed to be him stopping using Anthony Bromley, who bought most of his good horses.
It seems to me there’s little point in buying Irish stock as the locals have the inside track and the contacts. The UK trainers get what’s left. And Mullins seems to have pretty good contacts in France too.
The UK programme encourages mediocrity. Day after day of low grade handicaps. Hardly any carefully framed conditions races. Look at any Irish card and there will be non handicaps targeting decent but not top class horses.
Too much AWR. Means the decent 90-100 flat handicappers that used to go jumping just don’t anymore.
UK races are run very differently to Irish races, which tend to start slowly and wind up gradually. Maybe this bottoms the UK horses out more.
And as for the handicaps I’m at a loss as to why the UK and Irish handicaps get so out of synch.
I suppose any trainer is entitled to school over the XC course.
As for numbers and trends, Nathan, between 1980-2004 the Irish averaged roughly 4 winners. Then (and I know the number of races increased during this period): 05-9, 06-10, 07-5, 08-7, 09-8, 10-7, 11-13, 12-5, 13-14, 14-12, 15-13, 16-14, 17-19. It’s reached epidemic proportions lol. I know 2017 could be an outlier, however, a firm foundation had been built from 2011 so it may become the norm.
It’s not really nationalism as many ‘British’ winners have always been Irish bred or trained or ridden by an Irish person. It’s just a bit frustrating that so much of the British form I study and racing I watch on a day to day basis becomes irrelevant when it produces only 9 winners. The friendly competition, the fun slant put upon the Betbright Cup is just that. But I do think there are serious implications of such a poor performance for British racing.
Can’t agree with that at all. For a start, are you really privy to the training methods of all those trainers? And what is Mullins doing that Hobbs etc isn’t day to day? Nothing I would happily guess”
I would be also be very happy if I had bought thsitlecrack altior of defi. Who wouldn’t
But what is it that the Irish seem to have so much strength in depth and the British don’t?
And why do the above mentioned trainers have so many dry spells for that many years? There must be something that Mullins, Elliott or Henderson do better or different than the rest.Dan Skelton is another example: he’s got very decent horses, but they only win at minor tracks. Okay, he might be able to place them very well. Nothing wrong with that. But why doesn’t he have anything decent for the Festival?
I think having a pop at dan Skelton is a bit ridiculous given that stables record and talent for improving horses. Furthermore judging trainers just by cheltenhsm is like judging a footballer only on his cup final performance. Lastly you state that tizzard is overrated so it must be just down to the horses he has that such good results have been achieved then? Which begs the point doesn’t it
Can’t agree with that at all. For a start, are you really privy to the training methods of all those trainers? And what is Mullins doing that Hobbs etc isn’t day to day? Nothing I would happily guess”
I would be also be very happy if I had bought thsitlecrack altior of defi. Who wouldn’t
But what is it that the Irish seem to have so much strength in depth and the British don’t?
And why do the above mentioned trainers have so many dry spells for that many years? There must be something that Mullins, Elliott or Henderson do better or different than the rest.Dan Skelton is another example: he’s got very decent horses, but they only win at minor tracks. Okay, he might be able to place them very well. Nothing wrong with that. But why doesn’t he have anything decent for the Festival?
I think having a pop at dan Skelton is a bit ridiculous given that stables record and talent for improving horses. Furthermore judging trainers just by cheltenhsm is like judging a footballer only on his cup final performance. Lastly you state that tizzard is overrated so it must be just down to the horses he has that such good results have been achieved then? Which begs the point doesn’t it
Yes, the Tizzards had a great year and a Hennessy and a King George are no small feats at all. But apart from the top horses which are of very good quality, I don’t get the impression that they can produce winners like a top stable should do.
And Dan Skelton has a very good strike of almost 20% in the past 5 years: However at tracks like Cheltenham (9 from 100), Sandown (1 from 33), Ascot (4 from 45), Newbury (6 from 48) or Aintree (5 from 39) he just doesn’t match his achievements from Market Rasen, Fakenham or Wetherby where the strike rate is three times higher. He places his horses very good, no doubt about that, but he isn’t top level.
Seven Irish trainers won races, and seven English trainers won races, it’s just more strength at the moment in certain yards, which happen to be in Ireland. Any of these owners could exit the game at any point, same as Lewis/Smith did.
Tizzard has only recently given full attention to training and Skelton has hardly been training for eons has he ? How many trainers rack up loads of cheltenhsm winners in their first few years ? Yes he’s got the backing infacilities but I judge a trainer by what they do with what they’ve got
If I back a horse I want it to win. Could be trained in Timbuktu for all I care. The vast majority of people interested in racing are so for financial reasons. Sure, 99.9% of us wont profit in the long run but money is the motivation. The whole nationality thing is totally artificial, never met anyone who gives the slightest **** about it.
Rugby (to use an example from earlier) and football are totally different. Many are fanatically devoted to those sports without ever having a penny on. Yes the residency rules for international rugby are a joke but people still love the club game and that’s got sod all to do with nationality.
Am not interested in how many British or Irish or French or American horses win our races…
That is… as long as it is a level playing field.
Do other countries have as stringent rules on steroids and other things that affect horses? Probably.
Far more to the point:
Are rules adhered to?
Do other authorities make enough checks, so as to deter trainers breaking rules?
Are penalties heavy enough to deter trainers breaking rules?I do my own “trainer in form” ratings. They’re not all about wins, more to do with probability (prices), running to form (or not) and/or improving.
There’s a lot of rubbish talked about this subject. eg Media said Mullins was “out of form” after the first two days. In fact his horses had run as well as their form entitled them to. Plenty of placed horses. Douvan’s poor display all aout an imjury which could happen to any horse (including those from in form trainers). I made a post prior to the Festival saying Mullins horses were coming to form nicely. Began Tuesday with a 7 out of 10 from me.However, Elliott’s form immediately prior to Tuesday was a mere 5/10. A 6 is my rating for neither above or below form. So Elliott bagan Cheltenham week with his horses in fairly poor form. And yet from the first Cheltenham race bang, bang, bang! Almost everything was either running to form and a lot improving. Trainers do suddenly hit form from time to time, so from going from 5 to 10/10 in a day can happen; but it’s extremely rare. Jessie Harrington 6/10 going in to Tuesday to 10/10 by end of Cheltenham. Ran 9 horses at Cheltenham, won 3; two of the losers no hopers so call it 3 wins from 7 in the most competitive races all year.
These three did not just produce good or very good form; it was absolutely outstanding! I only (usually) give a 10 about seven or eight times a season. Hopefully coincidence that three Irish trainers could not have chosen a better time to suddenly score a 10.
Value Is Everything
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.