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This is probably one of those naive noobie questions that induces eyerolls and yawns but here goes;
If someone came long just wanting to make money, just the most reliable stable consistent way to make money and no expense spared in doing so.
Who is the biggest ‘guru’ tipster / most elite subscription service / system / whatever ?Is it Henry Rix (seen his website that’s about all I know about him).
If I said (and I’m not but just pretend I am) "hey I don’t care about horses I just want to make money, point me in the right direction" what would the answer be ?
I see tons of ebooks and ‘systems’ and laying vs backing and VDW etc. etc. but in any given race one horse is going to win, place etc. So either all those systems arrive at the same conclusions or some of them are flawed.
So the bottom line is, who are the 800lb Gorillas of the tipsters ? The Michael Schumachers of betting advice ? Anyway, I think you get where I’m coming from
Thanks,
CDLet me be quite clear right away and in the process I will save you a fortune. There is not a tipster in existence who has your interests at heart.Paying for "information" is tantamount to throwing money down a bottomless well. Please do not believe anyone who tries to tell you otherwise.
There are some very knowledgeable people on this forum whose contributions you would be better advised to take note of.Crouchingdragon
You wrote: "So either all those systems arrive at the same conclusions or some of them are flawed."
It is not a straight either/or. For any specific race different systems, methods (or top tipsters) may well offer different selections, and if they are all win only selections they can’t all be right. But that in itself doesn’t mean that any of them is flawed. No one (sane and honest) will claim to have a system which always finds the winner: rather, the issue is what system, method (or tipster) delivers a worthwhile profit over an extended period.
Your point about "no expense spared" is also relevant. If you mean that in a solely financial sense, you are looking for something to buy, or to subscribe. Others may have suggestions. The only system (or method, as the originator termed it) I know that generates substantial, reliable profits cannot be bought but has to be learnt, so is probably not relevant to you.
Why pay for some one to drive you when you could learn to drive yourself and have much more fun if you catch my drift.
Goodlife…… for 40 years I used to think like you and for 35 of those years I was always struggling…. I made enough money to go on the odd holiday but it was always hard work…… I thought like you do and probably bet much the same as you do, but no more ….. my daughter said to me some time ago… "dad, you think your good, what on earth makes you so big headed that you dont think that there’s anybody else out there that can hold a light to you"…… I thought about that, boy did I think about that…. I hated paid for services with a vengeance….. I guess I’m a throwback from a past age…. but this is the time for technology, the time for more readily available information that has been unavailable to me before (I’m 65 years old, so no spring chicken), so I have spent the last 12 months delving and digging away…… and just let me tell you. without any doubt whatsoever, your talking a load of b***s…… there are services out there that are remarkable in their achievements, I am now using two services that are far, far better than I have ever been (and that hurts my ego), you just need to do your homework…… I am making a nice bit of pocket money following these guys and you are so wrong to put other people off…. let them find out for themselves…. yes, you may be saving them money, but on the other hand you could be losing them a fortune…. its best not to pass judgement on something you know nothing about…..
If you have any doubt about what I’m saying and you think I’m putting business the tipsters way, take a look at all my posts and pop down to the systems section and ask them if I’m a straight sorta guy…… you are wrong, and I haven’t even mentioned one tipping service…..regards
MrEMr E
I am very glad that you have found two providers of racing information who are making money for you and wish you well, long may it continue.I do not dispute that there are tipsters out there who will have long winning runs lasting maybe a couple of years. But in the long run – which is what counts – they will all lose. I was not making an ill thought out reply to the opening post. Several friends of mine have told me hair-curling stories about their experiences with these charlatans.Why on earth would anyone who possessed confidential information about a horse’s wining chance pass it on to a complete stranger? It is ultimately up to oneself whether or not to subscribe to a tipping service and if anyone is of the opinion that I was talking rubbish, then go ahead and hand over your cash, don’t let me stop you.
The best way
forward for any newcomer to racing is to be realistic and to realise that skilful punting is a craft that has to be learned.Absolutely correct Goodlife, I understand exactly what you are saying, and please dont misunderstand me in this…. most of the tipsters that send you "information" are con artists of the highest calibre and I wouldn’t touch ’em with yours…..
but with a bit of hard work sifting through the rubbish dump, you will come up with something that might be rewarding….. as you so rightly say, studying the form and all the analysis that goes with it is hard work and a skill in itself….. but you or I are not the only ones that possess such skills, there are thousands out in the ether that know far more about ratings and form and suchlike than I do….. Just a couple of examples of what I mean….. and this wont tread on anyones toes because these are already in the public eye…. I refer to AM and even Pricewise in the Post…… these are free services, but I’d bet you a pound to a pinch of poo, that if either of these were to start charging for their services, they’d get a few hundred guys follow ’em over that red line…. would they be wrong to start paying for that "info", no, I dont think so……
Some years ago I ran a business that gave me an income, that income was earned by employing people that could do the job better than me…. they were my employees to which I paid a monthly wage….. is it not the same with tipping services….. you should employ the ones that can earn you money and sack the ones that cant….. no problem….. and more importantly, if you ask correctly, you can get them to work for free for a while to try out your new labour force….. I have just finished a 30 day trial period in which I’ve just paper traded the service…. this is another person that I will no doubt employ in due course…… if they are gonna con you, I would doubt that they would offer you a free trial first, especially one of such length……
There are services out there that do all this hard work for you, they monitor such services for 12 months or more, and only if they are any good do they recommend them….. yet another "employee" that is working on my behalf….. my works manager…… lol…..
MrE
Mr E
I do not dispute that there are tipsters out there who will have long winning runs lasting maybe a couple of years. But in the long run – which is what counts – they will all lose.Hi Goodlife, I respect your opinions as I do generally with others on this board but that statement does not make sense. It is impossible in horse racing to have pure luck lasting a couple years. If someone has a 2 year winning streak they are obviously applying the skill and knowledge of which you speak.
In something that is based on pretty much pure chance and with enormous numbers to work with, such as the lottery, it is possible to have long runs of certain number combinations but horse racing does not have either the same magnitude of randomness nor the amount of variables for any really lengthy run of pure luck.
-CD
Hi CD,
I do not personally know of any provider of information who has ever had a winning run of two years duration. I suggested this time span for the sake of argument. I am open to correction but I think it unlikely in the extreme that any subscription service has ever had such a run.
Regards,goodlife
Hi Mr E
I take on board all that you say and in this age of the internet maybe there are services which really do cut the mustard. Your approach is logical and of course form-based advice such as is featured in the Pricewise column is in a totally different category.
If I remember rightly didn’t Melvyn Collier of Pricewise start a private service? Going back further, many of Mark Coton’s selections were truly inspired.You are also right in that form study is a very time-consuming business and the idea of "sub-contracting" out some of the work involved is very attractive.
What I can’t get my head around is why someone whose selections really have a winning edge should want to share them. And I don’t believe the old chestnut that they are unable to get the bet that they want to have on. There are ways that exist now to have as large a wager as one wishes.Regards,goodlife
This is turning into a good thread, discussions like this are sorely lacking these days…. nice one for bring it up "dragon"……
Goodlife….. you are right of course, it really is a load of old cobblers saying that you’ve gotta put tips out cos you cant get your bets on….. I think we really have to take a deep breath and face reality, these guys are in it to make money, its a business, and should they be faulted for that….. if I had a fantastic strike rate on the GG’s and was making money, would I keep it to myself ????….. mmmm…. I very much doubt it…. I would want to capitalise on that good fortune and would make extra thousands by selling on…. and why not…… why should I not make money from all my hard work, if all these sportsmen and women can make mega bucks from their hard work and dedication, why shouldn’t I…. I have put many years of study into this, am I expected to give it away to help everybody to line their pockets….. no, not on your Nelly…… I was a very skilled sheet metal worker before retirement and if people wanted my services they would have to pay for them because I aint likely to chuck 40 years experience away because of a pretty face or a liking for the person….. if they want my skills, they pay for it…… likewise for the tipster or tipping service…….
But, as with all the rogue traders flogging their crap extentions and double glazing, there is still a handful of quality companies out there that would build your conservatory for a fair price and give quality after sales service too…… but you have to look for them, you have to search through all the effluent to find those gems…… but once you found them, be prepared to pay to keep them….. you dont get anything for nothing these days, mankind has got very mercenary…… the past is gone, we’re in a new world, I see no reason why a good honest service should not be paid for their work and consider that they are right to charge for their services….. if I was good enough, I would do likewise, one has to use whatever skills they possess and barter in the market place for the best possible price….. thats OK by me…… lolol…. good thread this……
MrE
i have made a profit every year for the last 5 years (not enough to pack in work but enough to keep the wolves from the door) and the wife off my back. i have never and would never pay for information as all the info i need is in the RP. i profile horses to spot thier preferances and back them when (or if) the criteria is met. its long hard work but it pays off (like today 2 with nice profiles in an each way double (placed 8/1 and 5/1), chipmunk
PS i keep meticulous records as everyone should!!Thats great Chippy, each to his own…… just for a comparison, I spent half an hour on my P/C about midday….. I then ended up betting… Quws Law…. Oh Crick… River Bounty… and Southend to beat Huddersfield tonight….. so that was £20 straight win on each at 7/4… 2/1… 1/1… and one loser….. thats about £75 for half an hour, I dont mind paying someone for earning me that….. as long as it doesn’t cost me £100…. lol….. to be straight with you Chips, these two services cost me less than £2.50 a day…. well worth it I think……
I’m not advocating that anybody should start following tipster services, that is surely up to the individual and I wouldn’t want to guide them in any direction, but you cannot tar all services with the same brush….. I just wonder how long you studied to find your bets today, I had mine in half an hour…… its just a case of wether you want to clean your car by hand or chuck it through a car wash….. no difference to the end result but I know which ones easier….. all the best Chips keep banging ’em in….. I love winners, I think its contagious…..
MrE
I quite agree, Mr E.
The labourer is worthy of his hire, as the good book says. There are genuine services out there, but you have to wade through the mire to find them. I say genuine in the sense that they are not just scams but small businesses operated by knowledgeable people who know their stuff.
There is some appeal in the notion that anyone who can consistently beat the odds is going to keep it to themselves. However, there are two reasons I can think of that might cause successful backers to share their knowledge.
The first is spreading the risk and thus reducing the effect of the inevitable losing sequences. Businesses have wages and overheads to be paid in bad times as well as good and many of these successful backers are in this category.
Second is vanity. Everyone(well, almost everyone) likes to make their mark in the world and many of the best form analysts could just as easily have achieved some fame in another sphere. So, having developed a winning ‘formula’ or knack, they seek the tribute that they feel they deserve.
In the social circles I formerly moved in, ability to find winners of races on a regular basis was a qualty that elevated the ordinary man to a much higher level amongst his peers. I have a feeling that this is still true.
Thats a good posting Art, and just about sums it up……
For 40years I believed tipping in any of its forms, to be a con…. it was only something that was said to me when I was struggling with my own selections, that made me venture such terrible thoughts that perhaps I could have been wrong…… in my own defence, I was bought up in the days of Prince Monolulu…. now there’s a name to conjure with….. over the last 12 months I have emailed and have spoken to some of these guys and they are, or appear to be, hard working guys….. I always did pose the question of why sell the stuff when you can make more money betting them…. the honest ones gave the answer…. money….. one guy in particular told me that in his early days he used to get home from work, shower, shave, and then spend another 4 hours serving behind the bar at his local club….. he said that he didn’t need the money because he earned enough from his day job…… but the extra income gave him freedom and a sense of wellbeing…… I believe that now….. money makes the world go round and all that…. they give a service and are right to charge for it, they save me hours of hard and tedious work, I now have more time to spend with my family as I disappear into my dotage…… and lets be honest, if they are no good, you can sack ’em…… my only advice would be the same as I give my friends who wants the offices of an electrician or plumber…. only go to ones that are highly recommended….. and they need to be recommended by your friends and family, recommendations by people you dont know are usually worthless……
I’m not about to recommend any services because it would always look like I’m touting for ’em…… and, present company excepted, there isn’t many on here now that I would be willing to lay myself open to abuse for….. there are most definitely good guys out there Art, but let the guys that doubt me look for themselves, I do not intend to get into a long running argument about the pros and cons of the tipping industry….. good posting mate, and a great discussion…..
MrE
Some interesting input and, as you say Mr E, proving to be a really good thread.Previous to this thread I had never heard anything positive about information providers in all the years that I have been interested in the game.As a wise man once said, nobody knows everything.I hope all the input is helpful to Crouchingdragon.
hahaha….. yes, very good Matron…. now how can I put this without appearing to be rude…… ah yes, I know…..
Goodlife…. nice to have a decent discussion aint it…
I was always under the same impression as yourself, and it did take a few harsh words for me to decide to check it all out…… and I’m really pleased that I did…. yep, it takes a lot of trial and error to avoid the scammers, but if you get a third party that you can trust that recommends any service, its always wise to swallow a bit of pride and just look at it…… I dont suggest that everybody drops what they’re doing and starts following tipsters, the chances are you’d pick the wrong ‘uns, but some of ’em are worth a second glance because its only half the price of a packet of ciggies or a couple of pints of Stella a day….. I pay more per month for all my racing papers…. lol…… anyhow, I’m sure the Dragon has had his/her answer and thats what these boards are about….. nice one everybody, an entertaining thread….. cheers….
MrE
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