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We’ve moved on to banning certain reporters from government briefings now.
That’s what happens when you vote for known liars backed up by dodgy unelected ‘advisors’ such as Cummings. More erosion of democracy.
Moe, I take it you haven’t accepted any result of a general election either? What political parties promise in Manifestos and then actually put in to practice can be very different, several links below
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057%2F9780230319301_4
As for dodgy unelected ‘advisors’ Richard88, this is nothing new as the below links show. Quite an eye opener some of it. The last link I am working my way through as it is 55 pages long but I’m finding the subject an interesting one
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/19/spads-special-advisers-took-over-british-politics
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/our-work/professional-development/special-advisers
They’re making a list: the inexorable rise of the special political adviser
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmpubadm/writev/psa/psa.pdf
I don’t really care what has happened before. This is happening now and it’s affecting a lot of people. It has made racism and xenophobia somehow acceptable [and don’t tell me it isn’t happening because it is, mainly because it was used to win the referendum]. After there is an election the electorate can hold the government to account over their promises and can then overturn them at the next election. We are now stuck with a very powerful government that can turn Brexit into whatever they want it to be. And, as for Cummings well, special advisors may have been around for a long time but there has never been one as cunning and manipulative as this one. By the way I do know that governments don’t follow through with what they put in their manifestos because I almost voted Conservative once because there were a couple of things in the manifesto that would have benefitted me financially. I stupidly hadn’t noticed the promise of an EU referendum; something that if my memory is right was hardly touched upon and only happened because Cameron was scared by the rise of UKIP, not because the country would be better off in any way by leaving the EU. So no, I won’t sit back and keep quiet about what is happening to this country even though I sometimes get abuse shouted at me in the street [something that has never happened to me before].
‘Democratically’ elected dictatorships, of which the current one is the first since the Blair administrations, are due to our wholly undemocratic first-past-the-post system. Until and unless that changes to proportional representation then we the proletariat have no alternative but to grin, bear and accept
The only way is up: so I for one will just hope that this latest dictatorship somehow manage smooth the stormy waters that the ensuing years promise. The Tories have no functioning opposition – Labour should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves – so blithe, blind hope it has to be
Acceptance and hope or insanity?
The Snowdrops are early and particularly lovely this year: I feel better already
UK voted in the 1970’s to be in a “Common Market”… Remainers may like to blame Cameron/Conservatives for calling a Euro Referendum; but no longer is it just a common market. EU is now about law and increasingly politics too. imo After 40+ years since 1975 – especially when its purpose changed massively – we deserved another referendum. How many years should we have gone without another vote?
We were all told whatever the referendum result, Parliament would do what the electorate told them. No matter what our political views are/were, it is undemocratic to stop Brexit.
Media (particularly the supposed neutral TV media)’s job is to reality-check everything. There may have been lies told by Brexiteers in the referendum, but imo no more than Corbyn and Co did in their 2019 election material. Had he got in, the country colapses. Only way to hold them to account is at the next general election – by then the damage is done. If the Left don’t accept a democratic vote then why should the Right accept any Corbyn/Long-Bailey government? Be careful in not appearing to uphold democracy…Despite being willing to join platforms with terrorists, unfortunately Corbyn refused to join a single Remain platform with Cameron, probably the difference between Remain winning and losing. Labour also had the opportunity of joining Mrs May for a softer Brexit but failed.
…So it’s unfair to blame the Tories.
Some of the far right may have used Brexit as an excuse for racism and xenaphobia, but they will grab at and use anything as an excuse for their stupidity… However, the racism card played by many whenever immigration was mentioned led to no real discussion. Meaning successive Governments (of all colours) failed to adress people’s legitamate immigration concerns… I all probability the electorate’s frustration also meant a bigger Leave vote than might have been.
tbh When it comes to Racism and Xenaphobia you’ve only got to look at what’s happening in Europe… France, Germany, Italy, Hungary and many many more EU countries have a much greater problem with racism/xenaphobia than the UK… Possibly something to do with our much maligned election voting system. It’s not so long ago we had the BNP and EDL and before that NF. Had we had proportional representation they may well have got a foothold in our Parliament… Just as far right parties have done so in EU countries – indeed more than a foothold! Our voting system’s democratic frailty itself imo has democratic advantages.
1) Decreasing the chance of far right parties gaining political power.
2) First Past The Post enables us to vote for the MP/person representing us, not someone enforced on us.
3) Proportional Representation is often described as if everyone gets what everyone wants; but in practice smaller parties have a say far greater than their own vote share. Because it is often they who hold the votes enabling a majority. ie Minority/coalition governments are much more likely in PR voting, so smaller parties hold the balance – similar to the DUP in May’s government. What if Conservatives were kept in power by one MP, Nigel Farage? We’d get an even harder Brexit! In reality Proportional Representation means everyone gets what very few want. 44% is not a majority, but at least a large minority gets what it wants.
Value Is EverythingOur voting system’s democratic frailties itself imo has a democratic advantages. ie Decreasing the chance of far right parties gaining political power.
The present government can’t quite be described as ‘far right’, at least not yet, but their attempt at media censorship is very worrying indeed. To their credit, even journalists from the various rabid tabloid rags walked out in solidarity.
IMO we’d never be in this mess if we had PR. Sure, there would have been a few Kippers in parliament but a big part of their argument was that they were being ignored. That argument is gone if they have a few seats. Cameron wouldn’t have **** himself and we’d all have carried on as normal.
Democracy is about a lot more than counting votes. Said votes must be obtained through legal means for a start. If I cheat in order to win a horse race, you don’t let me keep the prize money and say ‘well it’s ok, we’ll have a clean race next year’, you throw me out and award the win to the second place. Remind me again which side has broken the law?
I’m no Corbyn fan but to suggest that ‘the country collapses’ if he gets in is nonsense as is all that rubbish about him being a terrorist sympathiser or a Communist spy and whatever other shite the tabloids spew out.
As for racism and xenophobia, I quite agree that many European (and beyond) countries have a problem but we are far from innocent and it starts right at the top. I’m sure many of you are familiar with our PM’s remarks about various minority groups. Such remarks would get me sacked if I made them at work, is it any wonder that people with these views now feel emboldened?
It’s not the tabloids regarding Corbyn, McDonnell and Co. Anyone over 50 years old interested in politics should remember. But don’t take the tabloids or my word for it. You only need to read what his OWN party’s MP’s thought of Corbyn! Corbyn is on the far left of the the country’s left wing party! McDonnell (shadow chancellor) admitted only recently to being a Marxist. Marxist chancellor!
Country colapses.
Investors do not like far left governments. Anyone investing in a country run by Corbyn needs a far greater return on their gamble. Labour’s manifesto based on being able to borrow masses and masses amounts of money at normal British rates. Had Labour won, those lending the UK money would’ve immediately upped the interest rate because the risk would’ve been not only greater but far, far greater! Labour either stop spending or continue “investing” but at exhorbitant rates, which (after the following election) needed to be paid off by the next and every other future government. Remember the last Labour Government’s treasury bloke saying “no money left”; it would be far worse! Austerity on steroids in order to pay off Corbyn debts!
Value Is EverythingThere’s a big difference between right and far right. Boris is nowhere near far right.
Be careful of believing the left wing’s press’s motives when it comes to what Johnson said.People in this democratic country can rightly wear anything they want to – no matter what I (with my possibly narrow western view (or anyone else)) thinks of what they look like. However, free will is important. I am concerned about whether some women wear some clothing because they’ve either been made to or brainwashed to.
Value Is EverythingGingertipster wrote:
It’s not so long ago we had the BNP and EDL and before that NF. Had we had proportional representation they may well have got a foothold in our Parliament… Just as far right parties have done so in EU countries – indeed more than a foothold! Our voting system’s democratic frailty itself imo has democratic advantages.
1) Decreasing the chance of far right parties gaining political powerYou either believe in democracy warts ‘n’ all or you don’t believe in at all
Support for a voting system purely because it favours one’s own political beliefs and/or prevents due representation by those whose doctrines you find distasteful – however foul the flavour – is a mark of the intolerant and intolerance has no place in a free society: ‘I hate what you say but I defend your right to say it’
Those against PR have made hay of the fact that had it been in force at the 2015 election then UKIP would have been due 50+ MPs, having accrued nearly 13% of the total vote. Ugh! what a horrible bunch, thank goodness we have FPTP blurt these self-appointed arbiters of political morality
I would have loved to have had 50+ Kipper MPs and heard their beliefs being scrutinised and blown apart. Instead all those who voted for them didn’t get a voice, felt further disenfranchised and went on to vote Leave in the following year’s referendum
You silence those who you disagree with at your peril. We are where we are now: a manifestation of that peril
There is no perfect democracy. There are good and bad points for Proportional Representation, just as there is for First Past The Post. Just a matter of what each person prefers… It is not about keeping a favourite party in power.
Couldn’t give a XXXX if UKIP got however many MP’s, Drone. Fair enough if they even became the government. Nigel Farage and UKIP/Brexit party are often described as “far right”, but it’s not what I mean as “far right”.
Just think it’s important to stop a 2020 version of Hitler becoming an MP. Proportional Representation gives a far greater chance of a Hitler/Nazi type (eg EDL or BNP) gaining respectability and therefore obtaining power/forming a “government”… which would be the end for democracy itself! So for democracy’s sake imo it is worth keeping with FPTP even if (and I concede it’s unfair) hindering the likes of UKIP/Brexit Party/Greens as well as BNP and EDL.
How is it “democratic” not to know the person you’re voting for in PR?
How is it “democratic” when there is a far greater chance of a small party (representing very few) blackmailing the biggest party to get what few want?
How is it “democratic” when there is a far greater chance of stalemate/nothing being passed?
Value Is EverythingEven if PR is a fairer voting system we had a referendum on this a few years ago – Cameron’s pledge to the Lib Dems in the coalition government. The result was a large majority to keep the FPTP system.
This is one of the reasons why Cameron gave us the EU referendum vote. He won the above referendum, the Scottish Independence referendum and believed he could win all referenda.
How is it “democratic” when there is a far greater chance of stalemate/nothing being passed?
I don’t think that would happen. Parties/MPs would soon learn that they would have to work together to get things passed. It wouldn’t be the farce of the last government where nothing could be passed. Working together would mean better and more transparent legislation being passed.
Where is there any evidence of partys working together? May be Cameron and Clegg, but Liberals paid for that in the next election. Working Together means going against manifesto commitments which voters don’t like. Experience suggests partys are either punished for working together or only have their own interests at heart, homer.
PR gives a far greater chance of a minority government. Possibly needing three or more partys to “work together”.
SNP’s price for supporting a minority Labour Government (“supporting” as in an issue by issue minority government way rather than a pact) would be another Scottish independance referendum.
Liberals get their Brexit referendum.
Greens force the government to go much further than the rest of us might want regarding carbon fuels – which might sound great but puts our businesses at a competitive disadvantage – causing massive unemployment.
Plaid Cymru want a billion pounds extra for Wales, before coming back for more and more each month.
SDLP get a Northern Ireland/unification referendum.OR may be the right can form a government:
Brexit Party insist on an ultra-hard Brexit for their support of a minority Conservative government.
DUP get a billion pounds for Northern Ireland, before coming back for more each month.
BNP and EDL want…Value Is EverythingEven if PR is a fairer voting system we had a referendum on this a few years ago
With typical British compromise it was a referendum on the Alternative Vote (AV) system which is a tad fairer than FPTP but not as fair as PR methods
Anyway, debating these issues is pissing-in-the-wind as FPTP suits both the Conservatives and Labour just fine, so change is most unlikely
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_vote_plus- Total Posts 2553
Would be good to see a reply on this from Batchelors Hall (thread starter) or hein bollow
“Razeen’s posts seem to have been completely wiped, shame”
As noted by Drone above…
I don’t think any of Razeen’s posts still exist in the back numbers Matron. As one poster remarked on the Betfair forum When Razeen was removed from The Racing Forum ‘it was like the leckie went out’
We are all or mostly all adults on here. If I overstep the line in the future and the deity decide I am for the slaughterhouse – just send me a pm or email with instructions to stop posting for in perpuety. Like the good lamb that I am I will abide and put down my pen forevermore and a day – but left in situ will be the green fields that sprout my art.
And so it should come to pass.
….the list
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