August 26, 2002 at 21:22 #4218
I have to ask, actually say, that I don’t think McCoy would be anywhere near the Dunwoody total winners mark without M Pipe. This man is so shrewd. Who is the real genius?
Tomorrow – Uttoxeter
Dream With Me 2/5f<br>Delaware 4/5f
plus a 9/4f and a 13/8f
My great aunt Ethel could get some of the McCoy – Pipe stable mounts home :laugh:
And it certainly helps when you get all the best rides.
Any opinions? Do you think R Johnson would be challenging for the most winners ever if he had been fortunate enough to have a stable full of ex-french imports to ride in tinpot races at NA, Exeter, Fakenham, Sedgefield etc, etc?<br>August 26, 2002 at 22:27 #100280Mr BMember
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I don’t know why I’ m even bothering with this , yes I do , Tony McCoy is the best N.H. jockey ever to sit on a race horse, what do base your criticism on?<br>A.P. is driven to the point of obsession makes very few mistakes ,goes for it when other jocks don’t even see it, and he still seems to be a decent guy.<br>A.P. has produced year in year out the guy is a one off. The only thing you may be correct about is that given the chance Dickie Johnson is a potential challenger however he’s not had it yet , wait and see!<br>The next time you(or Aunt Ethel) get a chance try sitting on a Horse , see how easy it is , just steer them round , no danger.August 26, 2002 at 22:53 #100282
I don’t question, for one moment, the guy is sincere. And he is one of the hardest working jockeys you could ever meet. My question is based around everybody calling him a wonder jockey. You say that, given the chance, R Johnson is a potential challenger. That’s exactly my point. While McCoy rides for the Pipe yard, what chance can Mr Johnson have of ever fulfilling that promise?
I mean the comparisons to the great Sir Gordon Richards a while ago? Come on, be real. Gordon Richards never had a heliport to take off from and land at. My point is simply that people seem to go overboard on things like this. Am I the only person who thinks Mr McCoy has a slight advantage over GR as far as travel arrangements are concerned? I’m not saying that this is relevent to this thread. But it was brought up a while ago in the media. No comparison.
I’m just interested in others point of view is all. I’m not looking for a flame war. He’s a great jockey, I don’t question that for a second. The best ever? On numbers, maybe. I happen to think that Richard Johnson is a better, more versatile jockey. But that is just my opinion.August 27, 2002 at 00:24 #100283poguesMember
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hello <br>put any jockey in the pipe stable they would be champion jockey , i personal do not think mccoy is the greatest jockey of all time, he is a brilliant jockey and most probaly the best finisher in the buisness, but to me you put the likes of paul carberry in pipes stable he would break all the records<br>look at the stats for a punter like me backing all mccoy mounts this season you would be out of pocket but say betting on all of pauls rides this year you would be well in pocket, to me thats a sign of a good jockey winning at any price any tom dick and harry can win on class horses at 1/5 on, well thats my opinion <br>cheers poguesAugust 27, 2002 at 08:14 #100284Tete RougeParticipant
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I think McCoy is the best out there at the moment but there’s no doubt that he racks up the winners so quickly partly because he rides for Pipe.
The greatest ever? How can we really make comparisons? How can we compare him, for example, with Fred Winter?
IMHO, at present the three next best after McCoy are all in Ireland – Ruby Walsh, Paul Carberry and Barry Geraghty (in no particular order)August 27, 2002 at 08:22 #100285SeagullMember
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Pogues is correct.<br>Martin Pipes horses always are a point or 2 below value and overall backing every one to level stakes will cost you money every year. The best trainer to follow blindly is Paul Nicholls he will normally show an overall profit at the end of a season 21.72 points overall profit last season he raced 452 horses less than Mr PIPE last season but had only 99 less winners.He has made an overall profit to level stakes at s.p for the last 3 seasons. Martin Pipe lost 114.63 last season to the same criterea.
As regards A.P. Mc COY I have seen first hand how good he is with the public at Plumpton last season he took a crashing fall come back in covered in mud yet still had time to sign an autograph for a lady in a wheelchair befor going in the jockeys room. He returned a little later and presented the lady with all the autographs of the jockeys and one of his jockey silks. Pity some of the flat jockeys do not treat the public the same. He does a lot for charity playing football this coming Sunday at Greatwood Retired horserace centre does bungee jumping also for charity at Lamboune open day. A credit to his proffesion. So well done Tony on beating the record (he has not done so yet but by the end of this week) he would have done so.August 27, 2002 at 08:27 #100286bearMember
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Here’s my ten pence worth. All this jockey hero worship tends to get on my wick. Who’s to say whether McCoy is better than Johnson or better than Francome or better than Jonjo or better than Biddlecombe or better than Martin Molony. One things for sure whoever rides for Pipes sausage factory rides more winners than anyone else but what exactly does that prove. Some of McCoys pace judgement from the front stinks and if a claimer rode the same race he would be pilloried. I happen to think that Ruby Walsh is the equal of McCoy in all departments and a far better judge of pace to boot – but after all that’s just my humble opinion. On the Johnson front I think he is vastly overated and his presentation of a horse at a fence when the stride isn’t obvious is reminicent of Luke Harvey on a bad day. If you analyse yesterdays leg break fall, Johnsons hesitation before the fence contributed to the error. David Nicholson packed him off to Yogi Breisner for tuition early in his carreer as he wasn’t happy with this aspect of his riding, but Johnson is still of little assistance to his mount when the stride is not obvious. Criticism aside thankfuly he horse appears to be OK and Johnson will live to fight another day. Prayers required for young Jimmy Mansell.August 27, 2002 at 09:16 #100287roryParticipant
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Anyone who produces statistics about the odds available on McCoy’s mounts or the level stakes loss he produces (especially in comparison with talented but comparatively indolent jockeys like Ruby Walsh and Paul Carberry) as evidence that he is overrated needs to get a grip of themselves. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â If that’s the logic you use, I’d love to be your private bookie!
He excels in every aspect of the game, and those who pick up on his strength in a finish as his forte, obviously have no understanding about the value of presenting a horse correctly at a fence – the man is absolutely unrivalled at that, and his lack of serious injury is no fluke!
Those who mention Gordon Richards record as being more valid have a point, but while Sir Gordon hadn’t the luxury of helicopter transport and regular evening fixtures, theses days races aren’t started with the words "Ready, AP?", in the same manner as was the case for Sir G.
AP’s critics should watch his rides carefully for a week and pick out the steering jobs – there aren’t that many, I can assure you!
I’ve been a fierce critic of AP when he’s been wrong (and he has often enough), but he’s shown a combination of natural talent when adjudged the best rider in his first season as a conditional (not riding at all for Pipe incidentally, but still finished 4th in the jockeys table!), as well as a fierce determination, single mindedness and appetite for hard work. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â He has also shown recently that he can learn from his mistakes and is, almost incredibly, getting even better each year.August 27, 2002 at 10:26 #100288
For the record, my original post was not a criticism of AP. I think he is one of the best around today. But his riding skills don’t project him into a completely different league than other names mentioned here.
My point. He’s good, but that’s as far as i’d go. There are plenty of vary talented jockeys around that don’t have at least 3 potential winners ‘in the pipe’ :laugh: before they turn up at the course.August 27, 2002 at 10:55 #100289RichKParticipant
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It is the combination of the two. McCoy would not ride nearly so many winners if he didn’t get first pick of Pipe’s mounts; Pipe wouldn’t get so many winners if he didn’t have McCoy’s talent to call upon.
I’d refute the suggestion that anyone could ride for Pipe and get winners. Pipe is a difficult man, as all geniuses are; it takes a special and strong character to be able to spark off Pipe – look at the unease in the Dunwoody/Pipe combination.
Using betting as a yardstick with which to measure the jockeys ability is absurd – the level profit figures merely prove that there is less value to be found on an AP horse (look at the ridiculous Racing Post web page, where they highlight AP’s mount in the betting matrix!)
Sir Gordon also didn’t have to throw himself over at least 8 wooden obstacles in each race; he rarely had to propel himself into the ground at 30 miles an hour either.<br>August 27, 2002 at 11:17 #100290SeagullMember
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Rory,<br>I produced the overall profit/loss situation of the trainers and not the jockeys. You can be my bookie if you like but I have many ‘account closed’ letters.<br> I will willingly send to you first you may wish to re consider your kind offer then!<br>August 27, 2002 at 11:40 #100291RichKParticipant
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I wonder if I can steer the thread on a slightly different course?
How does AP compare with Peter Scudamore? We seem to forget these days that he was ever a jockey (his shocking TV performances seem to cause that), but I’m rereading the 221 book, and I have to say I’d forgotten just how good he was.
There’s almost a level playing field, because AP and Scu rode for the same stable.
With respect to Scu, I feel that AP is miles ahead in every sense; raw ability, drive, determination, style, strength in a finish, tactical ability, the lot.
What do you think?<br>August 27, 2002 at 11:56 #100292Tete RougeParticipant
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I agree – I think AP is better than Scu was. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
We seem to be in an era now when each successive "generation" of NH jockeys pushes the boundaries of determination and commitment further. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â It’s hard to see how anyone can take it further than AP – but who knows?
Rory – I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to describe Ruby Walsh and Paul Carberry as "comparatively indolent" given that there is much less racing in Ireland for them to take advantage of. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â They still rush round the country, often to meetings where there are only one or two NH races on the card and often to ride nags that appear to have a cat’s chance in hell of getting a sniff of the winner’s enclosure. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂAugust 27, 2002 at 11:58 #100293johncockerillMember
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It is now very difficult to make further comments that have not already been covered by other contributers, however I have to agree with all the pro A.P. writers.<br>McCoy once said that there is no such thing as ‘unseated rider’ as in his opinion that means ‘fell off’.<br>He will &, has never, given up on a horse and while he will never unnecessarily beat a horse, he will always get 100% out of that horse.<br>In conclusion, while statistics only tell a part of the story, The best jockey of all time, IMHO, is A.P.McCoy, and consequently he rides for the most successfull trainer at this moment in time, M.Pipe.
John.August 27, 2002 at 12:21 #100294roryParticipant
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you don’t fit the criteria needed to become a punter of mine, as you appear to analyse your stats properly :biggrin:
no offence was meant in my description of messrs. Carberry and Walsh – they are both extremely talented jocks; the terminology I used was merely meant tio highlight the fact that McCoy’s workrate is frightening, and would probably be the road to attrition for any other rider, and should be credited accordingly. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Opportunity can come at a heavy price.
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