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Ian,
Can you clarify where point regarding Coolmore hyping up their horses, I have yet to see this to be honest. I have seen regular advertisements in relevent racing press for their stud and stallions, which I may add are quite similiar to any other breeders’s advertisements.
Aidan O’Brien has said that Hawk Wing was a potential superstar previous to the 2002 Flat season, based on what the horse was doing at home. Fair enough he has not lived up to his reputation at home, apart from his run in the Lockinge. Other trainers talk up their horses, and when the horse under performs they have their excuses, like most sports I imagine.
There was an awful lot of hype for Moon ballad before the Prince of Wales Stakes, yet he floped, and there was not an awful lot said about that in ths forum! So why is it Ballydoyle gets flack when their horse flops?
Also, Ian you make a point regarding Grandera "well and truely beating Hawk Wing", thats quite incorrect, a neck, I think was the winning distance.
Dunheap, I do know what PR stands for, but thanks for the english lesson all the same. So bloody what if the horses are feeders for their Stud, what the hell is wrong with that? I don’t think Coolmore are alone in that method of business. You must think that they are mate. Which is quite naive. And no, Hawk Wing would not be running this season if he had of delivered last season.
For those doubting Hawk Wings right to head the market last Tuesday, I would say forgetting his Newbury win even his Guineas run and Derby run would have entitled him to be hot favourite. <br> Yeah DD was impressive but he only got a 125 rating for beating the useful but thoroughly exposed Tillerman. Hawk Wing absolutely destroyed Tillerman at Newbury, while WOW destroyed Tillerman in the QE2 last year. At this stage I dont care what others think of the horse, everyone has pretty much made their mind up about him one way or another.<br> But I repeat again, call Hawk Wing what you will and decry every race he has run if you like but you CANNOT base any opinion whatsoever on his run on Tuesday. I would understand people be sceptical about the "lameness" if it was just Ballydoyle that reported it but it was the course vet that said it who is independent of Coolmore etc. Anyways no need for me to defend Ballydoyle John is doing a cracking job!
Sorry forgot to mention the hotpot Khelefy that got beat, how much hype was written about this horse? I’m sure you guys knock the sh*t out of the Ballydoyle PR machine will add your comments regarding connections of this horse, mainly the jockey, Frankie Dettori who led everybody to believe it was merely a stirring job today.
So go on lads, post away………
By the way thanks Aidan!
Ian,
If you do dislike hype in general, why have you not made comment on Kheleyf or Moon Ballad. I read your comment on backing Russian Valour, and you could not have Kheleyf at the odds. However if Kheleyf had have been an O’Brien hotpot I’m sure the baters would be on ridiculing connections.
Moon Ballad and Kheleyf were two horses who like Hawk Wing were over hyped and readily flopped. So can you tell me why there are not similiar threads on this forum regarding them. Like Hawk Wing they too will have a career at stud when they retire.
I am in agreement that the obsessive futurism as you call it, is commercial. As I said it would be naive to suggest it was just for sporting reasons. Coolmore are no different than any other breeding operation, yet they continuosly get bated on the forum by you and other people, I have yet to read you bating any other breeding operation. If you have, please tell me, but I have yet to read it. <br>
Your reading of Aidan O’Brien is sadly astray Ian as I think will be recognised by many, including those who are not Hawk Wing fans. I think your years in journalism have taken their toll and your cynicism has taken root. I also see you are determined to have the last word on the HW issue. Fire away!
"Hype"<br>Lets talk about hype. Any time I hear Aidan O’Brien or indeed Mick Kinane been interviewed about their horses if anything they under play them!! When was the last time O’Brien or Kinane ever took the stance Dettori and Loder so foolishly took today? Never, O’Brien will often quote the "July Cup speed quote" but I have never heard him talk like Terry Mills does every time Where Or When is about to race "fear no one" or "we’ll definately get Hawk Wing sometime this year".<br> O’Brien has admitted himself he should have said the "triple crown" quote about Hawk Wing as he was setting the horse up for a fall. Much like Florida Pearl and the "next Arkle" quote. Look at Best Mate’s connections. Terry B has compared him favourably with Arkle. When has Aidan O’Brien EVER compared Hawk Wing to Nijinsky or BG??<br> If you want to label someone with hype its the press. The Racingpost (particularly recently in order to get back into O’Brien’s good books) consistantly gives him preference over other news, or even the front page on tuesday with Hawk Wing sprouting wings. Is that Coolmore or O’Brien’s fault? I think not.
Ian,
You’ll find that the Pegasus wings were attached by the racing post editorial team, not Aidan O’Brien. Also, I have not heard anyone say from Ballydoyle that Hawk Wing is the greatest living horse in memory, nor from anybody in this forum. As for your bet with Cormack, you”ll find that other trainers do make comparisons between current horses in their string and horses that they have already trained, so O’Brien is not alone in making those comments. And yet I have never heard you refer to those trainers.
The point I am trying to make Ian, there seems to be no balance in the arguments put forward in this thread, its just the usual negative comments that are continually directed at Ballydoyle.
The old cliché springs to mind, success breeds contempt.<br>
Sure didnt Dettori say the second today was the best two year old he has ever sat on? cant hype a horse much more than that!
Flagship,
there are a lot more training establishements that do that, not just Ballydoyle, do they annoy you too?
Flagship,
I have no problem with people criticising Ballydoyle. However in this thread and countless others they are continuously bated. They are in the game the same as other training outfits, yet they come in for more criticism than most. As I said earlier if there was balance in this thread and others, I would not have a problem with it, but this is not the case.<br>
Flagship is right, these are the stock phrases that ballydoyle use. however, its like teh game of two halves, coudlnt have done it without the team the type of nonsense that is trotted out after soccer games by star players.
O’brien and the operation that he works for dont give information away for nothing. O’brien has never come out and said that such and such a horse is the best Ive trained. I dont know where thats coming from. He doestnt volunteer information, he is asked for comments.
It is teh crucifiction of hw when beaten (happens a lot) liek that of FP, in which so much delights some. Maybe part of it is a national thing. Not in a bad way, but there is an element of the irish get so excited about there horses, but really there not that great.
Is the reason why there’s no dancing around when horses like Kheylf, killer instinct, (and Ballydoyle hyped horses!!) and possibly airwave tomorrow is because the irish look at racing slightly different to some on here. The irish seem to get more passionate, easier to wind up than others. (There seems to be a national divide on this thread)
How many times does First gold, flagship uberalles, have to disappoint before being reclaimed as the champiosn that they rightfully were at the end of the jumping season. Florida pearl beat Best mate, fair and square in my opinion, was officially rated the highest chaser, and gets nothing but criticism.
Its a funny old world.
Jim, if the thread doesnt interest you, dont read it.
PR stands for Public Relations.<br>How many horses outside of the Magnier/Tabor ownership or part ownership does O’Brian Train?<br>How many yards have the beginning of season, press day like Ballydoyle, and why do they do it. <br>The horeses are nearly all well, bred or bought in at expensive prices.
The business end is to, promote the horses, they have suceeded as this very thread, proves, HW is being compared with horses who are termed to be "great". Wether he wins another race or is retired, makes little difference he will be remebered when, owners are looking to cover a mare.
Earlier in the thread I used Cape Cross as an, anology, not as I said that Cape Cross is any better, but on the day other horses, were much nearer in a comparble time. The form of this years Lockinge IS questionable as is the form in any race by anybody, this has not been helped by HW turning lame at Ascot. But does not detract from the actual result.
Ballydoyle has up until this season, retired horses, earlier than later. HW only stayed in training, to improve his reputation, with the run the other day injury or not, he has again muddied the waters. My feeling is that, ballydoyle masters felt also felt that the form of the lockinge was suspect, hence the desire for a definitive win. Against equals who run their true race on the day.
Ballydoyle are pretty effective at feeding the Hype machine, other trainers, play their cards close to their chest and will only give a sentence in reply about a horse, usually gaurded, with caveats. <br>The racing media unused to IMO this kind of information from a big yard can only use it, the problem being then, that the Journalists, are still in arse sucking subjective mode, not objective mode, as a true Journalist should be. (if O’Brian says it’s good it must be).<br>If ever there was an over hyped horse, then at the moment HW fits the bill.<br>It’s not that some of us dislike Hyped up horses, its that quietly we feel that other, horses, issues and people are not having the coverage they should have. <br>Morgans et al, I respect your steadfast view of HW, but to me a "great" or "greatest" of horses will have won, over 80% of it’s races, put in two or three scintillating performances on the way. IMO HW has not done this, nor will do.
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(Edited by Dungheap at 2:16 pm on June 20, 2003)
Load of crap Dungheap……..Ballydoyle are the only ones to have a media open day because it is the only majorly held private stable. The likes of Godolphin(who actually have an open day at Dubai before World Cup),Stoute and Cecil all gallop horses on the open Newmarket gallops,press go there every day. So your actually critising Ballydoyle for having a press open day?!? For years people gave out about the secrecy behind the yard, now not only do they open their doors in the spring but also for the Derby build up(although after the Brian Boru/Racingpost incident might not happen again). You ask any of the press about the open days and they think of them and they’ll set u straight.<br> How many owners does Saeed Bin Suroor train for? Or Loder for that matter? What does the fact that Tabor and Magnier own the majority of the horses have to do with anything? As for HW being described as "great" in all interviews before the Queen Anne it was Bin Suroor and Dettori calling him a "great horse" and I found it surprising that Dettori before complimenting DD basically rubbished HW’s rating in Newbury.
Fair points from both sides I see. I agree Dettori/Loder did hype old Kheleyf up yesterday…and he was far from a steering job and it wasn’t jockey error that got him beat – it was Russian Valour.
But Aidan you never seem to admit that it might just be possible that Ballydoyle can over hype a horse or two. IMO all stables are guilty of it at some time or other and personally the media should shoulder a lot of the blame as journalists can often add plenty of spin onto a trainer’s or jockey’s quote.
Of course to some extent they do talk up their horses but look at the two year olds he has talked up:<br>Stravinsky<br>King Of Kings<br>Galileo<br>Giant’s Causeway<br>Hawk Wing<br>High Chaparral<br>Rock Of Gibraltar etc<br> All of which have pretty much come up to form. The one horse that stands out to me that patently didnt was Bernstein. Compare this to the hype about some of the Loder two year olds.
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