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Fair enough Ian but the O’Brien horses are running like dogs at the moment (those rumours about another virus at Ballydolye look spot on).
IMO it would be unfair to judge the horse on today’s performance (in the same way as it was somewhat premature to hype the horse to the extent he was after Newbury). ÂÂÂ
Personally, I’d give him another chance when the stable are in better form – the question is whether John Magnier will…
Quote: from Nick Hatton on 4:37 pm on June 17, 2003[br]PMSL  !!  :biggrin:
<br>How can any racing fan take enjoyment from Hawk Wing’s eclipse today ~ fair play if you backed the winner (I was on Tillerman each way), but I’m sad to see him run so far below form ~ I bet to win money, but I do want to see greatness, and that has been denied us. Hawk Wing proved his worth at Newbury, and I hope this doesn’t turn into another slagging off for a wonderful racehorse.
(Edited by rory at 4:44 pm on June 17, 2003)
Whatever HW did today, he still produced a masterclass perfomance at Newbury. As Ian says, he is not a horse to take a short price about. He has his faults we knew that before today. He was beaten after a furlong.
Rory
I think Hawk Wing was the best horse in the race but I correctly predicted BEFORE the race that today might not be his day and bet accordingly. In no way do I want to see the demise of a great racehorse and really I’m just laughing my head off at those people who thought Hawk Wing would be a steering job today.
No offense meant, just a case of very high spirits.
I know it sounds like another excuse, but I’m with Marling on this. Just look at how O’Brien’s other runners today have fared. Hold That Tiger (4th) is the only one to finish nearer first than last. Recent results in Ireland have not been too encouraging either.
PYSL at Hawk Wing Nick!
Those who laugh at the defeats of others are usually those most accustomed to bringing up the rear in life themselves.
PMSL at twats like you.
Well said Rory. Like yourself, I did not back Hawk Wing (Where or When) but still wanted to see a true performance from him and would not have minded if he had won.
I definitely will not be writing him off in the future. Mick Kinane has already admitted he made a big mistake in not letting him bowl along as he wished.
Thank you for your kind words cormack15.
Bringing up the rear ….. I think not my friend.
Nick – perhaps, like yourself, I was a little hasty with my post and I apologise for my ungracious remarks. I just get fed up with people taking pleasure at misfortune of others (in all aspects of life).
Hawk Wing has been difficult to train, wasn’t anywhere near his best today but finished lame I think. The Ballydoyle knockers seem to think the team over there have life easy with all the top class ammunition they have. However, while that obviously helps, their success does not come easy and one of the reasons behind their outstanding success is the hard work that goes into allowing these horses to fulfil their potential. People sometimes just don’t like seeing others succeed.
All that said, my comments were out of order and I withdraw them.
That’s fine cormack15.
I also apologise to anyone who was offended by my original post.
Nick,
you’ve shown good grace ~ you can henceforth consider me unoffended. Now Ian on the other hand…
Ian, surely it depends on what criteria you demand be met before a horse can be labelled ‘great’?
Perhaps for a horse to be considered a true champion it should have proved itself consistently on all types of going, distance, courses and race conditions (eg Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard). To be fair though, I don’t think anyone has claimed that Hawk Wing is so durable a horse – even his trainer has continually stressed that he needs certain conditions to really be able to show his obvious physical capability to its best effect (most notably fast ground).
Looked at from a different perspective, why can a horse not be lauded as great on the back of specific brilliant performances? Surely to decry the achievements of a horse on the basis of its bad days is to miss the point.  For instance, did Zafonic lose his right to be considered a truly senstaional miler when he sunk into the mud in the Sussex Stakes, notwithstanding a performance in the 2000 Guineas that was comparable (on any scale) with the very best?
Ultimately all horses are different – some have stronger constitutions, can take consecutive races better and withstand the rigours of training for a longer period of time. Similarly, some horses need fast ground, while others can only truly show their worth when the ground has enough give to allow them to stretch out properly.
At his best, Hawk Wing has surely demonstrated (and not just at Newbury) that he deserves to be rated among the greatest horses of recent times. In saying that, I don’t see how it demeans the achievements of the likes of Mill Reef or Brigadier Gerard. If anything it just indicates how astonishing those horses were in the ability to maintain such a level over such a prolonged period of time.
I took great delight in the race, Dubai Destination has finally proven himself (I’ve always known he was a Group One horse waiting to happen) and to recover from injury and come back is excellent stuff. I hope I see him at Goodwood. :biggrin:
As for :rolleyes:Hawk Wing:rolleyes: I take great pleasure in seeing this headbanging hype down the drain again. I’ll never take pleasure in the disappointment his connections feel as Hawk Wing is exceptionally talented. However there will always be 100000 excuses for him. It’s wrong to judge him on one run – whether it be today or the Lockinge.
Over the past year or so I’ve hard:
a)Hawk Wing likes the ground faster<br>b)Hawk Wing likes some cut in the ground<br>c)Hawk Wing likes to be held up and do ’em late<br>d)Hawk Wing is best making the running<br>e)Hawk Wing is possibly the best miler we’ve seen in years<br>f)Hawk Wing has had niggling problems (I don’t dispute that, connections know most about his welfare).<br>g)Hawk Wing could win a July Cup or a race over 1m4f.
This I’ve read/heard from the media, pundits, the horse’s connections, etc. He may have a valid excuse today (lameness?) but I also look back at last year’s form and Hawk Wing has not convinced me and still hasn’t and if he’s so good he should have notched up more wins. As far as I’m concerned a horse with his apparant ultimate ability should only have one or two excuses for defeat, probably lameness/illness and severities in ground or distance. Hawk Wing beats them all for excuses.
Condolences to O’Brien and co, I hope they get him back – I’m sure they will. I know the media and the RP have to talk horses and races up to a certain extent but the hype that has been going on over the past year or so has been absolutely unbelievable, I’ve not seen anything like it. It is ridiculous. We’ll be seeing it to the day that horse retires which I hope will be some while off yet. If Hawk Wing doesn’t get his problems sorted this year will we see him next year?
What everyone seems to have forgotten is what an exceptional performance Dubai Destination put up considering all his problems.<br>Remember his Nottingham form wasn’t that bad as Dancing King had gone on to win a seller ar 25/1 on Saturday!:biggrin:
Ian
On a general level I completely sympathise with your obvious irratibility :biggrin: at the modern tendency in racing (and, indeed, in most other sports) to jump on a promising performance and build a horse up to be the ‘second coming’.
Similarly, I accept that if you had to attempt the (ultimately fatuous) task of listing the ‘Top 50’ racehourses of all time, those who had consistently proved their excellence time after time would have to come above those whose brilliance was more ephemeral (everything else being equal!)
Nevertheless, I still think there is a case to be made for treating each horse differently and assessing their true worth accordingly.  While it’s true that most ‘one-off’ performances are often false guides to a horse’s worth (King’s Best in the 2000 Guineas is one that springs immediately to mind in recent years or, even Arazi for that matter) and should, therefore, be treated with a large dose of scepticism, others occassionally have more substance to them (Storm Bird’s Dewhurst victory or Zafonic’s 2000 Guineas to use my earlier example).
To use an (admittedly) crude example from another sport, does Bob Beamon not deserve to be considered a ‘great’ long jumper just because he never repeated his world record performance ever again?
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