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Golden Horn may well have officially run on “good-soft” on debut; but that just goes towards the difficulty of judging goings by official reports. Only the last two races of the Nottingham raceday showed anything like a good-soft time, 7.26 and 8.54 secs more than Racing Post standard. Looking up It Must Be Faith’s Racing Post form says he won the second race on the Notts card on “GS”, yet achieved a course record time!
Presumably it rained during racing. Unlike TRFers, am absolutely certain John Gosden does not judge ground conditions on what the racecourse Clerk says. Times (not only his but races around his) strongly suggest Golden Horn’s race no worse than Good.Yesterday’s times suggest the average state of the ground no worse than good-soft, but there may well have been places worse than that. I’d have liked connections to have waited until after three races. Times always give a better indication of ground conditions than one man’s pre-racing opinion; but others don’t like late withdrawls of top class horses. I would not criticise connections for withdrawing on good-soft anyway.
Golden Horn’s action is one of an archetypal top-of-the-ground horse, unlikely to act as well on good-soft and even worse on soft/heavy. Added to that; softer conditions place an emphasis on stamina; the sort to suit a 1m4f to 1m6f rather than a 1m2f to 1m4f horse. So to say Golden Horn had plenty in hand and therefore would not have had a hard race – is wrong. With a speed horse as odds-on favourite – rivals would have gone off at a comparitively fast pace to challenge Golden Horn’s stamina.
Not as if Golden Horn has been wrapped in cotton wool. We’ve seen him four times and (with International and Arc/Champion) a potential six in a season. The great Sea The Stars went from Eclipse to International, even with an officially Good ground King George in 2009.
It is difficult enough for a three year old to go from the King George to International without it being a soft surface Ascot. Unlike both Champion Stakes and Arc which come as the last race of the season, a bad run can mean a premature end of a horse’s last season to race.
I find criticisms of connections on this thread strange – to say the least. Illustrates for me why some top TRFers are not top trainers.
Value Is EverythingI agree with most of what you say Ginge BUT he couldn’t have waited until after the first three races for a real interpretation of the going because they were all ran on the straight course and according to JHG the problem ground wise was down near Swinley Bottom which had not been raced on.
I think Mr Opp pays the bills and JHG trains the horse just let them get on with it!!
They haven’t done such a bad job so far.Not Gosden’s fault or problem but this is another reason why ‘racing’ cannot attract more people to the sport we keep on hearing about. Maybe the bettor forum should go to the FA Cup final and find that the main team has not turned up because they nearly lost the semi final when it rained and it’s raining again so have pulled out and will rest their players for the Champions Leauge final instead.
Blackbeard to conquer the World
Punters and racegoers got another kick in the teeth yesterday , pay good money to go and see Derby winner , ooops , pulled out , as nice horsey does not like the rain softened ground much
Dont get me started about the loose horse and whether it ran or not !!!
Racing does not give a flying puck about racegoers or bettors , they are cannon fodder , mere bit players , the sooner the new betting forum guys realise this the less time they will waste ….
As for yesterday at Ascot , the great british shambles of horse racing continued , if anybody needed more proof or evidence that Stier and friends are a bunch of overpaid idiots , then this was the occasion
what a shambles
I really am amused at all the fuss of the withdrawal, people pay big money for horses these days and there are enormous amounts of stake and they can do anything they want to do and what a shame it miffs so many members of this racing forum.
Buy a horse, pay it’s fees then tell us that you WILL run it whenever Joe Public wants it run, unbelievable.
Not Gosden’s fault or problem but this is another reason why ‘racing’ cannot attract more people to the sport we keep on hearing about. Maybe the bettor forum should go to the FA Cup final and find that the main team has not turned up because they nearly lost the semi final when it rained and it’s raining again so have pulled out and will rest their players for the Champions Leauge final instead.
People often go to football matches, only to find the manager has rested the best player in the team Nathan.
Value Is EverythingGolden Horn, 130, might have got beaten – so they withdrew him.
IBRacing and Ian’s words above make the most sense to me. The withdrawal damaged racing and was unsporting, over-cautious and unnecessary
<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Nathan Hughes wrote:</div>
Not Gosden’s fault or problem but this is another reason why ‘racing’ cannot attract more people to the sport we keep on hearing about. Maybe the bettor forum should go to the FA Cup final and find that the main team has not turned up because they nearly lost the semi final when it rained and it’s raining again so have pulled out and will rest their players for the Champions Leauge final instead.People often go to football matches, only to find the manager has rested the best player in the team Nathan.
Yes but that’s more akin to being jocked off like what Richard Hughes was on Eagle Top.
Blackbeard to conquer the World
I agree with most of what you say Ginge BUT he couldn’t have waited until after the first three races for a real interpretation of the going because they were all ran on the straight course and according to JHG the problem ground wise was down near Swinley Bottom which had not been raced on.
I think Mr Opp pays the bills and JHG trains the horse just let them get on with it!!
They haven’t done such a bad job so far.Good point Raymo.
Value Is EverythingEverything we know about this horse meant that when the heavy rain was forecast prior to the race arrived, there was only one likely outcome. The fact that Ascot & TPTB were all in on one horse being able to arrest the continued decline of this once great G1 race damages the sport far more than his withdrawal imho.
You can imagine the reaction connections would have got if they had run him and he trailed in 5th or 6th with Dettori stating (he hated the ground & couldn’t quicken in it) – it certainly wouldn’t have been comments along the lines of ‘well at least they gave it a go’.
At the end of the day, Gosden is paid by the owner to do what is best for the horse (not what is best for the general public/bettors) and given that he will be the back bone of the owner’s breeding business for the next 10 to 15 years it is understandable they want to save him for other days – had it been the last race of his career a la Frankel, then maybe they would have rolled the dice and taken their chance on the ground.
Personally, they made the right decision as whatever the outcome would have been had he ran, he would have been subjected to a very grueling race on ground that had probably dried from soft to that sticky tiring dead ground that blunts the speed horses and favours the sloggers, conditions like that can leave its mark (Camelot after his Irish Derby win immediately springs to mind).
The enforced break will probably be beneficial for the horse to keep him fresh for his later targets – we could be looking at a similar campaign that Sea The Stars was given (i.e. a race once a month from April to October) and who knows they may even roll up for a swansong in the Arc (even on soft ground).
Given the opposition, the King George was obviously the safer easier option but now he is going to potentially be facing his biggest test at York (race of the season candidate if they all turn up and the weather gods are smiling on us) and surely even those dipsh*ts in charge can’t muck that up from a promotional standpoint.
Sorry for the long rant.
Golden Horn, 130, might have got beaten – so they withdrew him.
The problem is that this statement is fundamentally wrong and there are some on here who either don’t have the mental capacity to get it or simply don’t want to.
GH wasn’t withdrawn because he might not have won. He was withdrawn because there was a very real chance that the race would take too much out of him and finish him for the season. This simple concept seems to be beyond the comprehension of some on here and I guess if you don’t get it after JG’s explanation you never will. GH is a fast ground horse and anyone with a tiny clue would see that his action strongly suggests that he would be all at sea on soft, tacky ground like they had yesterday. Now if you want to argue that it doesn’t matter whether it would ruin him or not then fine but don’t try saying that they got scared or cowardly or were unsporting because they were afraid he would lose and don’t howl that it is not good for racing. What is not good for racing is seeing a brilliant horse blunted by bad ground and then not being able to run to his best again. And if you don’t believe that would happen then just take a look at the history of horse-racing and see how many good horses never won again after being taken out of their comfort zones.
Gosden did the obvious thing after it had rained 35mm. He did what ALL top trainers would do and ALL top trainers DO do when conditions turn against their horse. How many horses could we ALL name that don’t run unless the ground is in their favour? The difference here is that GH was entered up until the last minute because they had no clue that the weather would do what it did. If Ascot had been soft on Monday and rain had been forecast all week he would not have been declared. Lets also not forget that GH wasn’t the only horse withdrawn from the race and that JG who is now the big, bad witch actually provided 2 of the 7 runners!!
If you read today’s RP you will see that there was not one single dissenting voice. It was a no-brainer. I think some on here should at least get THAT concept.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
For someone who doesn’t like nasty postings Jonibake that was a bit severe! Doubting mental capacity? Ouch! =D
I don’t personally think the word brilliant belongs in the same sentence as pulling a horse out because of bad ground.
Frankel faced bad ground in his final race but because he really was brilliant he was able to run and win.
GH is a stone inferior hence his connections were more timid on an unsuitable surface.
Yes, maybe they were saving him for later races – let’s see how many he actually runs in – but I reckon that were after protecting that unbeaten record. =D
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I agree Ian. Luca Cumani was unsure about Postponed running on the soft ground but he still had the balls to let the horse take his chance.
Frankel faced bad ground in his final race but because he really was brilliant he was able to run and win.
Yes, in Frankel’s final race, can’t see why you can not see that distinction Ian? Running Golden Horn at Ascot could have ruined the rest of his season, his final season. Hopefully he will have at least two more races. Frankel was having his final race and whatever happened in that final race was not going to change his future prospects.
Value Is EverythingI agree Ian. Luca Cumani was unsure about Postponed running on the soft ground but he still had the balls to let the horse take his chance.
Postponed had no alternative engagements and had nothing to lose by taking part, it’s a totally different scenario.
Value Is EverythingIt wasn’t Mil Reef’s final race when he was asked to run on soft ground, nor was it Reference Point’s or Dancing Braves or Nashwan’s or Brigadier Gerard’s.
With respect some people are talking absolute rubbish on this thread. The ground wasn’t heavy, it wasn’t even properly soft. People over-react then try to justify that by coming out with all sorts of junk,
The argument about maybe getting injured is the best one – in that case lets not run any horse in any race just in case.
The Swinley bottom one is the next best argument – ooooh it was much softer there – what for nine or ten strides?
Come on people be big enough to admit John Gosden was wrong and so are some of you. You cannot come up with a logical argument against that.
Of course I can see the distinction – I just don’t think it is a distinction worth making.
Frankel came to his final race with a perfect 13 out of 14 career – it bucketed it down and the ground was officially described as Heavy.
What’s more he faced in Cirrus Des Aigles a horse with a Timeform rating of 133 (way better than anything on Saturday) who loved the mud.
Frankel didn’t have a rest of the season to ruin but he did have a reputation to ruin and a stud value to damage.
But he ran. And won. Comfortably.
I like Golden Horn. I like Gosden.
But he just doesn’t have the same calibre of horse on his hands and he knows it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if York is Golden Horn’s last race – he definitely won’t be risked on anything worse than Good ground clearly.
This is the difference between a very good horse and a GREAT horse.
The former needs conditions to
suit – the latter just doesn’t care.I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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