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Trapper john,I would sooner see ‘Frankel’ run in the ‘July cup’ than the ‘Eclipse’ as like you say Tom could just ‘Let him Go’ and he would destroy anything over 6f,his Guineas win proves that.so for a horse blessed with such speed why are connections determined to step him up in trip? Simple! Credibility to being a truly versatile=All time Great horse,they know he will NEVER be accepted in any hall of fame because of his limitation! What limitation? STAMINA!
And one who’s shown stamina and not speed?
Value Is EverythingFrankel isn’t speedy enough to win over 5/6 furlongs if you ask me. A lot of people think Frankel is really fast but anybody can look fast beating average horses.
Excelebration has improved greatly since they last raced and will throw down a serious challenge to Frankel tomorrow.Deeman
What is all this talk of beating "average horses"? Is Canford Cliffs an average horse? Is Nathaniel? Is Excelebration? How can you say Excelebration has improved greatly since the the last (and 3rd time) they met? Because he beat Windsor Palace by 3 lengths? Please. Lets talk sense hey?
Gord – when it comes to Frankel we all know who is "blinkered" mate. Your ego will never allow you to accept this horse in the way the vast majority of others do. You missed him. Never mind. We can’t all be perfect.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
So it does not matter if a horse does not produce the very best performance/s in form terms to be an "
all time great
". All that matters is if he/she has done it at various distances (especially 1m4f).
Come off it Gord, what you are describing isversatility
. Some others seem to believe the horse needs to produce win after win after win, that’s
durability
.
Surely to be a true great what you need is the BEST FORM PERFORMANCE/S that show who is truly THE ALL TIME GREAT. It’s notdurability
or
verstility
but
ability
that counts when considering who is an ALL TIME GREAT. Otherwise you’ll have the crazy scenario of having horses capable of
BETTER FORM
than ALL TIME GREATS who are not themselves
ALL TIME GREATS
!
Like I said the latter was the last all time great and nothing that was a great at any individual trip did beat him!
Frankel isn’t speedy enough to win over 5/6 furlongs if you ask me. A lot of people think Frankel is really fast but anybody can look fast beating average horses.
Excelebration has improved greatly since they last raced and will throw down a serious challenge to Frankel tomorrow.Deeman
i agree i think excelelbration will throw down a serious challenge tomorrow because he is a very good horse but i dont know how you can say frankel is not speedy enough to win over 5 6 furlongs when he had everything off the bridle with 2 furlongs ran in the guineas last year
Sea the Stars beat a much higher quality field in the 2000 Guineas than Frankel did. True that Frankel won with greater authority but the bushes could have been 2nd to him and would deserve a better rating than Dubawi Gold and the other platers behind him.
Gord – when it comes to Frankel we all know who is "blinkered" mate. Your ego will never allow you to accept this horse in the way the vast majority of others do. You missed him. Never mind. We can’t all be perfect.
Joni I never missed him,I could have backed him at 10/1 for the Guineas as a 2yo,I watched him many times and I concluded he was a Nutcase,I was totally convinced he was a flash in the pan 2yo and that as a 3yo he would self-destruct,I thought his physique was too ‘square’ I didn’t like his head carriage,he was everything in a horse that Prince Khaled had never bred before.I was wrong about his Guineas performance,massively so,a truly awesome display! Aah but when he went 6/4fav for the Derby straight after who was it that said he wouldn’t go near Epsom because he wouldn’t stay a 11/2m in a bus!A helluva lot of so called good judges thought he only had to turn up to win the Derby! Tomorrow will be some day Joni I hope myself you and Ginge do meet up and have a drink,A toast to just being there will do for me!
Let me rephrase that.
Frankel is certainly fast enough to win over 5/6 furlongs but not against the best sprinters in the world, if you know what I mean, its not his game. He’s a miler, perfect for him.Regarding average horses, Dubawi Gold, Zoffany and Roderic o’connor are not exactly world beaters are they??
Canford cliffs was hanging like a kite when they raced, easily lost about 3 lengths but he was no world beater either.When he won the guineas last year, he didnt really beat much. I mean Dubawi Gold came second and has been well beaten of 117 since, but that was one impressive performance by Frankel that day.
Hope that cleared that up.
I do think Frankel is probably the best miler of the last 20 years thoughDEEMAN
So it does not matter if a horse does not produce the very best performance/s in form terms to be an "
all time great
". All that matters is if he/she has done it at various distances (especially 1m4f).
Come off it Gord, what you are describing isversatility
. Some others seem to believe the horse needs to produce win after win after win, that’s
durability
.
Surely to be a true great what you need is the BEST FORM PERFORMANCE/S that show who is truly THE ALL TIME GREAT. It’s notdurability
or
verstility
but
ability
that counts when considering who is an ALL TIME GREAT. Otherwise you’ll have the crazy scenario of having horses capable of
BETTER FORM
than ALL TIME GREATS who are not themselves
ALL TIME GREATS
!
Like I said the latter was the last all time great and nothing that was a great at any individual trip did beat him!
But at 1m Sea The Stars did
NOT
have the ability of an outstanding racehorse. A 2 1/2 length beating of Delegator, with 3/4 length back to Gan Amhras can
not
in any way be considered outstanding form. Had there been a horse capable of for example the form level of where Excelebration is now, Sea The Stars would
not
have won the Guineas, so (
in your mind
) would
NOT
have been an
ALL TIME GREAT
. So what you are effectively saying is to be an ALL TIME GREAT you need
LUCK
! To be an ALL TIME GREAT you need to be
lucky
enough to run against a comparitively poor lot of horses when
not
running at your
ideal
distance.
Great definition of ALL TIME GREAT Gord, a "
lucky
" horse.
NO! Sea The Stars was an ALL TIME GREAT because he was capable of OUTSTANDING FORM at 1m2f. That’s
ONE
distance.
Value Is EverythingFrankel isn’t speedy enough to win over 5/6 furlongs if you ask me. A lot of people think Frankel is really fast but anybody can look fast beating average horses.
Deeman
Not speedy enough? Really? Dream Ahead was arguably the best sprinter in Europe last season, and if anything, he did not seem to have enough speed to handle Frankel in their two confrontations. And, Dream Ahead is certainly no average horse! And, Canford Cliffs an average horse? Haha! And, Excelebration, Nathaniel, Immortal Verse are certainly no average horses either! As a matter of fact, three of the horses mentioned got the better of Goldikova last year, who is probably the only top class miler in Europe Frankel did not meet.
Let me rephrase that.
Frankel is certainly fast enough to win over 5/6 furlongs but not against the best sprinters in the world, if you know what I mean, its not his game. He’s a miler, perfect for him.Regarding average horses, Dubawi Gold, Zoffany and Roderic o’connor are not exactly world beaters are they??
Canford cliffs was hanging like a kite when they raced, easily lost about 3 lengths but he was no world beater either.When he won the guineas last year, he didnt really beat much. I mean Dubawi Gold came second and has been well beaten of 117 since, but that was one impressive performance by Frankel that day.
Hope that cleared that up.
I do think Frankel is probably the best miler of the last 20 years thoughDEEMAN
Even ignoring the hosts of other Group 1 winners to be well and truly put to the sword by Frankel, Excelebration is anything but average. Frankel excepted, he smoked everything in his path last season including an imperious win in the Moulin. Talk sense.
I’ve noticed Gord, you’ve ignored all the questions I asked. What does that says about your arguement?
So a horse can win a substandard 2000 Guineas, and then go on to win a substandard Derby and be an ALL TIME GREAT. Yet an outstanding miler or sprinter who’s capable of puting up a performance
20 lbs superior
than that dual Classic winner – can NOT be an ALL TIME GREAT, because he doesn’t stay 1m4f.
Ginge, One could argue that
Sir Percy
falls into your criteria there,yes ‘Frankels’ 2000gns performance was a better performance than ‘Sir Percys’ 2nd to ‘George Washington’ but your 20lb is a helluva exageration but I’d bet ‘Sir Percy’ would beat ‘Frankel’ in a Derby,so they have beaten each other there so your arguement is flawed besides you fail to mention other required Group 1 races to establish All time Greats.
You didnt mention one great performer there. Canford cliffs lost 1/3 of his races, yeah what an amazing horse lol
Yes they beat a well below par Goldikova who was way past her best, some achievementI said Frankel is one of the best milers of the last 20 years, what more do you want?
MAN I AM ON FIRE TONIGHT
You can go ahead and sneeze, coz, my presence blessed you!!DEEMAN
Of course there is also a better than even money chance that Mr Queally will make a complete mess of things and have to rely on the horse to do his thinking as well. I’d rather have Shut the door Ives on board!
form is very easy to punch holes in sea the stars beat delegator by 1 1/2 length and gan amhras by 2 1/4 length in the 2000 guineas hardly world class form but then again i do agree he was a top class horse
Great definition of ALL TIME GREAT Gord, a "
lucky
" horse.
NO! Sea The Stars was an ALL TIME GREAT because he was capable of OUTSTANDING FORM at 1m2f. That’s
ONE
distance.
I think you need your beauty sleep mate!
Sea the Stars
Arc victory cemented his greatness and that was over 11/2m as was his Derby win!
How about you try to answer the arguments put forward above your post instead of inducing illusionary arguments. As I said, your criteria for all-time greatness is completely erroneous. Your criteria of winning at different distances would have meant horses like Abernant and Tudor Minstrel should not be considered as all time greats, nor should Black Caviar as an all-time aussie great. The reality is Abernant was stepped up to the Guineas and Tudor Minstrel to the Derby, yet both failed. But eh, who cares? Abernant = All Time Great, Tudor Minstrel = All Time Great, and rightly so.
My Criteria (as you put it) for all time Greatness is actually recognised throughout the world of racing as The Criteria to establish Greatness,its a bit like ‘All round Greatness’ SeabirdII, horses that are blessed with speed and stamina come along rarely,there are great ‘Speed’ horses like
Chief Singer
but he’s no all time great and he’d have given Abernant a run for his money over 6f but would have eaten him over a mile!
El Gran Senor
would have beaten ‘Tudor Minstrel’ over a mile and have left him for dead over a 11/2m and again wont be classed as an all time great because he never won the Arc,which incidentally is THE RACE of races when assessing an all time great! Neither of your horses are even recognised as ‘All time Greats’ because of their limited ability to see out anything other than their favoured trips.All time Greats excel at various trips thats what seperates them from just being Great at one trip! Try again SeabirdII!
Your criteria for all time greatness is recognised throughout the world as the criteria to establish greatness? Haha, delusional. And, Chief Singer would have given Abernant a run over 6f? Just shows your level of horse racing knowldege really. There are quite a few pre-war triple crown winners who are hardly mentioned in the same vein as Abernant and Tudor Minstrel, who yet failed to get the Guineas and Derby distance respectively.
The criteria for all time greats is in the term itself i.e. whether they are resist the test of time and are still talked about in glowing terms by future generations, just like we are talking about Abernant, Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel, Dancing Brave in this thread decades after their racing career. That’s how you recognise an all-time great, and whether you like it or not, future generations will be talking about Frankel in this very same way. All time great not all distance great, son!
You didnt mention one great performer there. Canford cliffs lost 1/3 of his races, yeah what an amazing horse lol
DEEMAN
Yeah, only 5 Group 1s. True definition of average, there…
And, as I said, Dream Ahead was the best sprinter in Europe last year, but was done for speed by Frankel twice, yet Frankel is not speedy enough to win a 6f. 5 Group 1s for Dream Ahead as well, average eh… We seem to have a very different definition of averageness.
You see Canford Cliffs and Dream Ahead as horses who lost 1/3 of their races, I see them as winning 2/3 of their races at the very top level.
Come off it Gord, what you are describing is
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