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As a 2yo Frankel was a top class horse.
As a 3yo Frankel was an exceptional miler.
As an older horse, until he has run, he is nothing.
Okay he is a very good horse, one of the best flat horses in the world at the moment but some people are saying he one of the best flat horses of all time
he is no way near.He wins his races well but hasnt beaten anything of note, IF he wins very well tomorrow and mops up top prizes across the globe then he will be one of the best of all time.
But to say he is now is CRAZY:!:I probably am hard to please though
Deeman
You can go ahead and sneeze, coz, my presence blessed you!!Okay he is a very good horse, one of the best flat horses in the world at the moment but some people are saying he one of the best flat horses of all time
he is no way near.He wins his races well but hasnt beaten anything of note, IF he wins very well tomorrow and mops up top prizes across the globe then he will be one of the best of all time.
But to say he is now is CRAZY:!:I probably am hard to please though
Deeman
You can go ahead and sneeze, coz, my presence blessed you!!I dont think You’re a hard man to please Deeman,you are a realist like myself and ‘Frankel’ is the best Miler I have seen,he’s certainly not the best Racehorse I have seen as that goes to the legendary
Dancing Brave
followed by the wonder mare
Pebbles
these 2 won over a 1m, 11/4m and a 11/2m.If ‘Frankel’ can do the same then and only then can he be described as an all time great!
I dont think You’re a hard man to please Deeman,you are a realist like myself and ‘Frankel’ is the best Miler I have seen,he’s certainly not the best Racehorse I have seen as that goes to the legendary Dancing Brave followed by the wonder mare Pebbles
these 2 won over a 1m, 11/4m and a 11/2m.If ‘Frankel’ can do the same then and only then can he be described as an all time great!
So it does not matter if a horse does not produce the very best performance/s in form terms to be an "
all time great
". All that matters is if he/she has done it at various distances (especially 1m4f).
Come off it Gord, what you are describing is veratility
. Some others seem to believe the horse needs to produce win after win after win, that’s
durability
.
Surely to be a true great what you need is the BEST FORM PERFORMANCE/S that show who is truly THE ALL TIME GREAT. It’s not
durability
or
verstility
but
ability
that counts when considering who is an ALL TIME GREAT. Otherwise you’ll have the crazy scenario of having horses capable of
BETTER FORM
than ALL TIME GREATS who are not themselves
ALL TIME GREATS
!
Value Is EverythingThe truly great horses have versatility and durability. Showing the ability and courage to win when not granted ideal conditions is every bit a desired attribute as a great one-off performance.
Next you will be telling us you think Old Vic was a better thoroughbred than Nashwan just because Timeform rated him superior.
Sometimes it is about more than just numbers.
‘Frankel’ is the best Miler I have seen,he’s certainly not the best Racehorse I have seen as that goes to the legendary
Dancing Brave
followed by the wonder mare
Pebbles
these 2 won over a 1m, 11/4m and a 11/2m.If ‘Frankel’ can do the same then and only then can he be described as an all time great!
Yet, the man who owned Dancing Brave says Frankel is the best he’s ever owned. I would guess he should be well placed to speak out on this matter. Anyway, I don’t need to look at distances and handicapping equations to recognise an all time great when I see one. I would far rather trust my eyes and brain than some dodgy distance criteria which would have the ludicrous pretension of ruling out Abernant and Tudor Minstrel, or even Black Caviar among others, as all time greats.
All those blinkered
Frankel
fans imagine this then! He wins by his usual 4 lengths tomorrow with Excelebration chasing him home in 2nd,he then does exactly the same in the Queen Anne at Royal Ascot Then Henry runs him in the Coral Eclipse and he runs out of puff behind
Twice Over
of all horses! DISASTER!The so called Greatest horse in the world doesn’t just lose that tag he drops down the All time greatest horse list by at least 20 places! back to a mile for the Sussex stakes and he beats Excelebration again for the 6th time! Its going to happen because Henry knows that to get the credibility the horse needs as a Great HE HAS TO WIN OVER FURTHER! Henry knows his style of running just wont let him do that,tomorrows a big big day to find out if the ‘New Stronger better settled Beast’ really has changed because if he is going to be stepped up in trip he has too!
All those blinkered
Frankel
fans imagine this then! He wins by his usual 4 lengths tomorrow with Excelebration chasing him home in 2nd,he then does exactly the same in the Queen Anne at Royal Ascot Then Henry runs him in the Coral Eclipse and he runs out of puff behind
Twice Over
of all horses! DISASTER!The so called Greatest horse in the world doesn’t just lose that tag he drops down the All time greatest horse list by at least 20 places! back to a mile for the Sussex stakes and he beats Excelebration again for the 6th time! Its going to happen because Henry knows that to get the credibility the horse needs as a Great HE HAS TO WIN OVER FURTHER! Henry knows his style of running just wont let him do that,tomorrows a big big day to find out if the ‘New Stronger better settled Beast’ really has changed because if he is going to be stepped up in trip he has too!
If Frankel doesn’t stay 10 furlongs he doesn’t stay 10 furlongs, that’s all. Doesn’t effect the form shown at 1m. He doesn’t have to win over further to be an all time great.
What about all the 1m4f horses who aren’t capable of winning a Group 1 as a 3yo+ at 1m? What about Shergar and Mill Reef?
And are you saying it should
all depend on being lucky enough
not to come accross a top horse at less than ideal distances?
Brigadier Gerrard was infinitely better at 1m than he was at 1m4f. Had he come accross a rival in the King George as good as he was himself at 1m… Brigadier Gerrard would
not
have won at 1m4f. And I suppose that would’ve
disqualified
him from being a "Great"?
Sea The Stars improved greatly after he won at a mile. Had he come accross a rival in the Guineas as good as he was himself at 1m2f… Sea The Stars wouldnot
have won the Guineas. And I suppose therefore
not
a "Great"?
No, it is how good a horse is given ideal conditions that matters.
Value Is EverythingAll those blinkered
Frankel
fans imagine this then! He wins by his usual 4 lengths tomorrow with Excelebration chasing him home in 2nd,he then does exactly the same in the Queen Anne at Royal Ascot Then Henry runs him in the Coral Eclipse and he runs out of puff behind
Twice Over
of all horses! DISASTER!The so called Greatest horse in the world doesn’t just lose that tag he drops down the All time greatest horse list by at least 20 places! back to a mile for the Sussex stakes and he beats Excelebration again for the 6th time! Its going to happen because Henry knows that to get the credibility the horse needs as a Great HE HAS TO WIN OVER FURTHER! Henry knows his style of running just wont let him do that,tomorrows a big big day to find out if the ‘New Stronger better settled Beast’ really has changed because if he is going to be stepped up in trip he has too!
How about you try to answer the arguments put forward above your post instead of inducing illusionary arguments. As I said, your criteria for all-time greatness is completely erroneous. Your criteria of winning at different distances would have meant horses like Abernant and Tudor Minstrel should not be considered as all time greats, nor should Black Caviar as an all-time aussie great. The reality is Abernant was stepped up to the Guineas and Tudor Minstrel to the Derby, yet both failed. But eh, who cares? Abernant = All Time Great, Tudor Minstrel = All Time Great, and rightly so.
If Frankel doesn’t stay 10 furlongs he doesn’t stay 10 furlongs, that’s all. Doesn’t effect the form shown at 1m. He doesn’t have to win over further to be an all time great
No Ginge to be an all time Great a horse Has to win at a variety of trips and they are 1m, 11/4m and 11/2m. To win at a mile you need to be blessed with a bit of speed to win at a 11/2m you need stamina and to win at 11/4m you need both.
Sea The Stars
was the last all time Great and a deserved one,a horse I never backed either,I’d love to see ‘Frankel’ step up to the helm and deliver the goods over 11/4m he’d get a bit more credibilty from me but will he ever get a 11/2m like his brother ‘Noble Mission’ not on your nelly!In years to come when you are telling your Grand children about the all time Greats one will ask so did Frankel win the Derby then Grandad er No son,well did he win the King George Grandad Ginger,er No son he didn’t but Grandad Ginge surely he won the Arc then,er No son he didn’t! Ffs Grandad Ginger he had to have won the Eclipse then? No son, the Prince of Wales then eh?…..Nope…..Juddmonte International grandad…..Sorry son Nope! What did he win then Grandad ah well he won erm……………the 2000 gns yes I recall he did win that young man! No All time Great Grandad!!
The ante post king is right, you cant call him a great yet when hes only beaten average horses over a mile.
He has to prove he can be as effective over longer trips which he probably wont because he doesn’t settle.Everybody believes all the hype but dont look at the facts.
He’s a very good horse being hyped up as a great one.DEEMAN
How about you try to answer the arguments put forward above your post instead of inducing illusionary arguments. As I said, your criteria for all-time greatness is completely erroneous. Your criteria of winning at different distances would have meant horses like Abernant and Tudor Minstrel should not be considered as all time greats, nor should Black Caviar as an all-time aussie great. The reality is Abernant was stepped up to the Guineas and Tudor Minstrel to the Derby, yet both failed. But eh, who cares? Abernant = All Time Great, Tudor Minstrel = All Time Great, and rightly so.
My Criteria (as you put it) for all time Greatness is actually recognised throughout the world of racing as The Criteria to establish Greatness,its a bit like ‘All round Greatness’ SeabirdII, horses that are blessed with speed and stamina come along rarely,there are great ‘Speed’ horses like
Chief Singer
but he’s no all time great and he’d have given Abernant a run for his money over 6f but would have eaten him over a mile!
El Gran Senor
would have beaten ‘Tudor Minstrel’ over a mile and have left him for dead over a 11/2m and again wont be classed as an all time great because he never won the Arc,which incidentally is THE RACE of races when assessing an all time great! Neither of your horses are even recognised as ‘All time Greats’ because of their limited ability to see out anything other than their favoured trips.All time Greats excel at various trips thats what seperates them from just being Great at one trip! Try again SeabirdII!
i think frankel is one of the best flat horses i have ever seen there is something about this horse that just oozes class ok he doesnt settle great but imo thats because there not going fast enough for him i agree with what your saying tapk to be considered an all time great you have to win over a range of distances but i honestly think frankel would beat any horse from 5furlongs to 10 which is a range of distances if he would stay a mile and a half i dont know also i dont think there would be any disgrace in losing to excelbration tomorrow who i also think is top class i really believe if frankel was running over sprinting distances he would destroy any horse
Frankel isn’t speedy enough to win over 5/6 furlongs if you ask me. A lot of people think Frankel is really fast but anybody can look fast beating average horses.
Excelebration has improved greatly since they last raced and will throw down a serious challenge to Frankel tomorrow.Deeman
I’ve noticed Gord, you’ve ignored all the questions I asked. What does that says about your arguement?
So a horse can win a substandard 2000 Guineas, and then go on to win a substandard Derby and be an ALL TIME GREAT. Yet an outstanding miler or sprinter who’s capable of puting up a performance
20 lbs superior
than that dual Classic winner – can NOT be an ALL TIME GREAT, because he doesn’t stay 1m4f.
Value Is EverythingTrapper john,I would sooner see ‘Frankel’ run in the ‘July cup’ than the ‘Eclipse’ as like you say Tom could just ‘Let him Go’ and he would destroy anything over 6f,his Guineas win proves that.so for a horse blessed with such speed why are connections determined to step him up in trip? Simple! Credibility to being a truly versatile=All time Great horse,they know he will NEVER be accepted in any hall of fame because of his limitation! What limitation? STAMINA!
Frankel isn’t speedy enough to win over 5/6 furlongs if you ask me. A lot of people think Frankel is really fast but anybody can look fast beating average horses.
Excelebration has improved greatly since they last raced and will throw down a serious challenge to Frankel tomorrow.Deeman
Sectional times indicate you are talking a load of tosh regarding Frankel’s speed.
I’m also interested in your deduction regarding Excelebration improving "greatly" since his last defeat by Frankel, as the only hard evidence is him beating a 106 rated horse 3.25 lengths in a Group 3. This is hardly conclusive evidence of his "great" improvement.
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