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It’s so gratifying to see that the overwhelming sentiment on this thread is anti the hunters. It confirms what I have long suspected, that the vast majority of people who follow the sport of horseracing want nothing to do with foxhunting.
I know quite a few people who hunt and when I ask them if they would go drag hunting in the event of a ban they say "I doubt it, just wouldn’t be the same without the thrill of the kill."
Sadists one and all. Have no sympathy for them!
It’s funny, Highflyer – I got the impression quite a few didn’t care – may be we all read in to the views we hear with a bias, I wouldn’t say I never guilty of that!
Actually Terence1, I was going to mention the numbers of voters – I was watching when the protesters broke in and was quite amused by the fact there can’t have been 40 MP’s in there at the time! (in fact from the picture on the front of the Guardian I can see 27, but you can’t quite see all the seats). Shows you it was all decided then – some democracy.
The reason this subject’s being discussed on a racing forum is that the racing authorities, without any vote or consultation, have aligned "racing" (that means all of us I suppose) with the pro-hunters.<br>I’ve no idea how much damage this will do to the sport’s image, but I would have thought it’s bound to do some.<br>
(Edited by Zorro at 12:27 pm on Sep. 16, 2004)
<br>looking at the unruly mob of hooligans called the countryside alliance
it would have been a good idea to use dogs preferably starving alsations to disperse them and send them back to where they come from
I’ve hunted foxes and hinds on horseback and hare and mink on foot. ÂÂÂ
I didn’t go to London yesterday because of work committments although some work colleagues did. ÂÂÂ
It is interesting to read everybody’s view on here and I wasn’t going to post – thinking this was more appropriate for the Lounge – but did not want people to think that only one side of the arguement participate in the TRF.
It seems pretty set that the Lord’s will chuck out the law and then the Government will enforce the Parliament Act, after which there will be lots of legal wrangling.  Subsequently even if the law is put on the statute the same thing may happen as in Scotland where hunting distorts so that hounds can put up foxes, hares, deer etc so that they can be shot. ÂÂÂ
Not sure what will happen to the worst vermin – aka mink – nobody seems too bothered about them in the current discussions. (On this point why do anti-hunters only complain about red coated foxhunt masters and staff and never mention green coats of harrier/beagle masters or blue coats of mink huntsmen?)
I’d like to say that I’d keep hunting if the ban comes in.  I think however this would just be bravado. I think the law would come down on the Masters and land owners – rather than just the field followers – so it would be impractical for the organisers to continue regardless of support from the subscribers.
I don’t approve of shooting or fishing but would not want to see either banned.  Maybe all activities need regulatation but in the end I’d rather people were allowed to get on with their own lives as long as other citizens don’t suffer.  I believe it is morally defenceable to hunt and hope that my daughter will have the chance to do so as well when she is old enough – if she wants to!
(Edited by Adrian at 12:15 pm on Sep. 16, 2004)
<br>good point zorro racing is shooting itself in the foot by siding with hunts people they should do what most sports do and stay neutral on what has now become a political debate
i do hope cheltenham wises up and removes the countryside alliance stand and renames the day they call country side alliance day
unless ofcourse its opponents are going to be allowed a similar sized stand and a anti hunting day of racing.
I rode as a kid but never hunted and wouldn’t hunt now. If it came to a vote I’d probably vote in favour of a ban but it would be a tough call and I think the issues involved are very far from being black and white.
There is a good deal of hypocrisy on both sides at the moment and I can understand why the pro hunt lobby question the motives of those currently bringing a ban about.
The fact is though that if you asked the British people to vote for or against hunting today the answer would be an overwhelming ‘against’.
There are a wide range of reasons for this and many of those reasons bear no relation to the real issues. I would agree that anyone in favour of banning hunting but happy to munch battery farmed eggs and factory farmed animals is on a pretty sticky moral wicket.
I would also agree that many voting against hunting would be doing so based on prejudice. It’s also true though that the pro hunting lobby has probably done more to reinforce those prejudices than change them.
I was baffled by the way in which the British public repeatedly voted for what I perceived to be a malignant, pernicious, vengeful and dangerous Tory party throughout the 80s.
But, the fact is that my fellow citizens kept on outvoting me and if I wanted to take my student loan (yep I snuck in before they axed that !!) and later benefits of being a citizen of this land I would have to stomach the unpalatable policital realities until such time as they could be changed.
It may be unjust in some peoples view to ban hunting but it’s unlikely to prove as devastating as the destruction of the entire manufacturing sector, the wilful destruction of the nation’s affordable housing stock, the unecessary prolonging and escalating of the N Ireland conflict, the morally bankrupt foreign policy that makes us nearly as loathed as the US. I could go on but you get the picture.
In the long litany of bad law-making a ban on fox hunting is not going to register too high on the list.
As for the attempt by some to associate racing with the pro hunt lobby I’d say only this. Put yourself in the shoes of a first time racegoer who is enjoying a thrilling and fun day at the races with some friends only to be confronted by a parade of hounds followed by jockeys carrying placards in support of the sport that most ordinary punters view as outdated,distasteful and more than a little barbaric.
Will you want to bring your mates racing on your next day out?
<br>
I don’t approve of shooting or fishing but would not want to see either banned.
So you hunt with hounds but don’t approve of shooting or fishing? Sorry, but I find that very odd.
Elaine
This is an excellent thread that shows The Racing Forum and those who post on it in a very good light. There is a wide variety of opinions on the subject matter and yet, despite that subject matter being highly-charged, everyone has been civil and coherent.
As someone who is very much opposed to hunting and yet has been involved in racing all my adult life, I would just like to make a couple of points.
I think the likelihood of the "antis" moving on to try to ban horseracing, once very remote, is much greater now as a consequence of the racing authorities’ unjustifiable and very public support of hunting in recent years.
The fact that jumps racing had its roots in hunting has been trotted out time and again in an attempt to justify jumps racing still having its roots in hunting. That simply doesn’t follow. A clean break with the past should have been made a long time ago. There are plenty of people who were making that point, say, ten years ago for instance. The conservatism of those in charge and the apathy of many who follow the sport has meant that horseracing has arguably been seriously stigmatised by its association with hunting.
By the way, I do not go jumps racing any longer for the simple reason that I can’t stomach the endless pro-hunting propaganda I see there. Many years ago I took a novice racegoer to a meeting at Hexham and they were so turned off by the sight of the local Hunt strutting their stuff that they swore they would never go racing again (which to the best of my knowledge they never have).
I am sorry to see that so many racing fans are as far away from the reality of hunting as the rest of Blair’s urban government.
I have been hunting regularly for over 20 years and can probably count on one hand the times I have actually seen the fox being killed. Nobody takes pleasure in seeing the fox being torn apart but it provides satisfaction in that it rewards the hounds who have been running all day and it provides a service to the farmers who kindly allow the hunt over their land inorder to control the fox population.
For the latter reason drag hunting cannot be considered as a viable alternative to fox hunting. Landowners and farmers cannot be expected to allow around 50 riders or more to gallop across their land is the fox control element is eliminated.
I live in a rural community and have been closely involved in the organisation of hunting. In our area around 95% of farmers are pro-hunting and allow us access across their fields.
Hunting is the kindest and most efficient way to control foxes, the young can easily outrun the hounds so on ly the old are caught – these are also the ones who stray onto farms for easy pickings in chicken runs, new born lambs etc.
As for the argument that hunting is just for stuck up snobs, I have found it to be the most levelling of experiences. Lords, ladies, sirs, rich landowners mix on an equal level with the unemployed, farm workers etc etc, asking their advice and opinions as they would their "social peers". Once on teh hunting field everyone is equal.
Racing fans who cannot see that a ban on hunting is the beginning of a slippery slope are very short sighted.
Once the grand National is gone, jump racing in general can follow, two year old racing and the list goes on.
Animal rights have their first victory, do you think it will end here now cuddly little foxes are saved? Luckily most people will never have to witness the devistation a fox can create otherwise views may well change on these creatures.
Next stop horse racing? Fishing? Mouse Traps?
Sorry Karly,<br>But I’ve never understood the argument that you’ve just made and which I’ve heard over and over again.<br>Fox hunting is the most effective way of controlling the population but you hardly ever kill any foxes?
"I have been hunting regularly for over 20 years and can probably count on one hand the times I have actually seen the fox being killed"
"drag hunting cannot be considered as a viable alternative to fox hunting. Landowners and farmers cannot be expected to allow around 50 riders or more to gallop across their land is the fox control element is eliminated. "
It does appear a bit of a contradiction doesn’t it? <br>
Daylight,<br>This is not a win for animal rights activists. The general public as a whole do not like the idea of foxhunting. It may be more a matter of perception than anything else but the fact is that most people don’t like the idea of a bunch of ‘toffs’ in fancy dress charging around the countryside in pursuit of an animal with the intention of seeing it ripped to shreds by a pack of hounds.<br>Now I know you’ll tell me that this perception is completely wrong but I will tell you just as surely that it is the perception and that’s the problem that hunters have. Whatever they think the real issues are in this debate they have made a pigs ear of communicating those issues. As a result this issue (like so many) will be decided on hunch and gut feeling as much as anything and most people’s gut feeling is that they find something gut wrenching about hunting with hounds.<br>
seanboyce,
When I said I hardly ever saw a fox being killed, I meant to contradict the argument that people go hunting for the pleasure of seeing the "living fox being torn limb from limb"
The field usually are at least a field behind the hounds and see very little.
Sean,
I’ve heard the arguments and the answers all before too.  The issue is it is hard to judge the value of fox hunting with hounds while it is going on, but in theory a well managed and effective  hunt won’t kill many foxes – they are there to control the population and get rid of the old and the weak – not dessimate the population. Many of the hunts haave covered the same areas of land for years and will have created a stable population. The same also goes for the argument that the fox isn’t a pest – if it was a pest the hunts wouldn’t be doing a good job either!
This overall is  theory – and varies from area to area according to the method of fox control applied – but the Burns report (despite the fact it was very inconclusive about anything else!) did offer the view that areas where hunting with hounds occurs had a healthier, more stable communities of foxes.
Ian,
Having a goverment that consistently forces through laws (and I’m not just talking about hunting) for their own benefit and to use as public spin, IMO is not wholly democratic – and I have the right to voice that opinion! :biggrin: It’s not a Labour / Tory thing, I’m not offering the answers but I am very disillussioned by the twisting of public opinion this goverment has adopted and the weight of ridiculous European red tape. There is no common sense anymore. <br>
(Edited by Spook at 2:41 pm on Sep. 16, 2004)
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