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Exact definition of a ‘NH Bred’ horse?

Home Forums Horse Racing Exact definition of a ‘NH Bred’ horse?

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  • #21577
    betlarge
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2789

    I always presumed this referred to a sire & dam that have only ever raced under NH/PtP rules. Is this right?

    Mike

    #401428
    threenaps
    Participant
    • Total Posts 315

    If you look at Coolmores website you will see they have a National Hunt section. Their stallions are horses that won on the Flat mostly at 12f to 14f.

    The majority of horses in National Hunt races are Geldings.

    #401435
    Eclipse First
    Member
    • Total Posts 1569

    Therein lies the problem, "NH Bred" Horses are no longer designed to be effective over distances in excess of 28 furlongs. With emphasis on speed there is a general move towards 20f being the optimum distance judging by the more competitive nature of the Ryanair than the Gold Cup this year.
    Of course this does not mean that some horses will not stay beyond 28f, but it does mean that the chances of there being 40 horses in training capable of "running" effectively at a distance of 36f is very remote indeed.

    #401436
    betlarge
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2789

    The majority of horses in National Hunt races are Geldings.

    Well quite! That was sort of my point – does ‘NH Bred’ mean only sired by former (entire) NH horses? Or does any offspring of a ‘Jumps’

    mare

    count, no matter the career of the sire?

    I don’t even know if the term ‘NH Bred’ or ‘Jumps Bred’ even means

    anything

    other than having some loose linear connection to NH racing.

    Mike

    #401438
    Venusian
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1665

    The expression "jumping bred" usually refers to a late-developing sort who’s not broken in until the age of 3 or 4, and who comes from a female line ("family") that has specialised in producing NH winners over the years.

    Such mares have usually been mated with stallions selected for their (hoped-for) aptitude in producing well-built horses with enough stamina to stay at least 2 miles over obstacles. A classic example of such a jump-bred horse is Denman. He is by Presenting, a top-class 12f horse who tends to throw big, strapping animals who don’t tend to mature quickly enough to be worth training as flat racers. Denman’s female line has been mated with stallions aimed at the NH breeder for many generations.

    It’s not absolutely necessary for the stallion to stay 12f plus – if you keep adding more and more stamina generation after generation, you’ll just end up with very slow plodders who’ll be hard pressed to win a race over

    any

    distance. Some of these jumping families need pepping up with a bit of speed, and the tendency not to do this may be one of the reasons why the speedier, albeit lighter-built, French-bred jumpers have done so fantastically well in recent years. Some examples of successful British Isles-based stallions of recent times are the miler Anshan and the 8-10f performers Strong Gale and Supreme Leader.

    #401439
    cormack15
    Keymaster
    • Total Posts 8979

    I think these days it (the statement) is than a general indication that a horse’s pedigree contains elements of breeding that have previously had some success in the NH game or are somehow likely to.

    I guess it might be most usefully applied to horses commercially bred specifically for NH racing.

    #401446
    Miss Woodford
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    • Total Posts 1335

    Nowadays a "National Hunt" stallion is often just a stallion who failed to be popular or successful as a flat sire.

    I do take issue with the whole "modern breeding is destroying the Grand National" thing. Modern training is the issue, not modern breeding. Red Rum himself had mostly sprinters in his pedigree, and he started out as a sprinter.

    #401448
    cormack15
    Keymaster
    • Total Posts 8979

    Is there any actual objective evidence that ‘breeding’ is having any effect on what happens in the National, or in jumps racing more generally?

    #401449
    Eclipse First
    Member
    • Total Posts 1569

    Red Rum was foaled in 1965, I hardly think that counts as modern. It is fair to say that he was a pure and utter freak such as occasionally happens when breeding the racehorse.
    Whether it is down to training methods or the way horses are ridden in the National, the indisputable evidence is that over 90% of the field fail to stay. If people who know about racing think that makes for a good race then they are utterly mistaken.

    #401452
    cormack15
    Keymaster
    • Total Posts 8979

    Hasn’t it always been the case that 90% of them don’t stay in the National?

    What’s your definition of ‘stay’ EF?

    #401454
    Miss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1335

    The majority of horses in National Hunt races are Geldings.

    Well quite! That was sort of my point – does ‘NH Bred’ mean only sired by former (entire) NH horses? Or does any offspring of a ‘Jumps’

    mare

    count, no matter the career of the sire?

    I don’t even know if the term ‘NH Bred’ or ‘Jumps Bred’ even means

    anything

    other than having some loose linear connection to NH racing.

    Mike

    Here’s my favorite pedigree ever.
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/shipboard
    *deep breath*
    Shipboard is by a Grand National winner/champion steeplechaser/sire of two champion steeplechasers and numerous jumps stakes winners, out of a mare who raced over fences. The broodmare sire is a stakes winner over fences and a sire of three champion steeplechasers

    and

    the broodmare sire of the 3x champion steeplechaser Neji. Grandsire/great-grand sire Man O’War sired many other talented jumpers including 3x Maryland Hunt Cup winner Blockade. Man O’War’s sire Fair Play sired champion steeplechaser Fairmount. Shipboard’s 2nd dam Sable Muff is the dam of multiple stakes-winning jumper Navigate (by Battleship, no less). Sable Muff’s sire Light Brigade sired steeplechase stakes winners Brigadier General and The Prophet. 3rd dam Little Muff, a stakes winner on the flat, is the dam of steeplechase stakes winners Ahmisk, Farragut, and Reykjavik, the latter two by Annapolis. Little Muff’s sire Sardanapale sired Sardaneza, a jumps stakes winner in France and the US. And so on.

    #401455
    Eclipse First
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    • Total Posts 1569

    Well given that Seabass, who was only beaten 5l failed to stay. It means it is more like a Whitehall farce than a horse race.

    #401459
    Venusian
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1665

    With the character of the Grand National having changed considerably in recent years, when it’s become a much severer test of stamina than it used to be, it’s not really surprising that more horses fail to stay the trip.

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