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I was a young 23yo in the press box at Epsom on Derby Day 1986 and I silently listened to various older “hacks” spitting expletive-ridden bile about Greville Starkey after the race.
For me, he was on a doubtful stayer on pedigree, held him up in a big field, then, when he realised they weren’t going that quick at the top of Tattenham Hill, found himself unable to make headway down the hill as Dancing Brave didn’t handle the descent at all well.
Starkey consequently had to come around the entire field turning for home, was in an impossible position, yet the great colt flew home and was only beaten half a length.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I can understand their bile to an extent, although I expect they were all talking through their wallets.
It does annoy me when horses are “ridden to get the trip”. It is negative thinking. Why run the horse over a distance if you do not think it will stay it?
Why not be positive instead? If it does not stay, go back in distance.
Dawn Approach ran off his face in the Derby but dropped back in distance and won the St James Palace a fortnight later.
I can recall several horses getting beaten through being “ridden to get the trip”. Or settled at the back and given too much to do, to give it a more accurate description. Marling in the 1000 Guineas is one that springs to mind.
I’m not saying it was a good ride, but Lester Piggott rode Sir Ivor to get the trip in 1969, it worked out, and he was lauded for one of the all-time great Derby rides.
Starkey lay too far out of his ground in a big field racing at a relatively slow pace, but it wasn’t his fault Dancing Brave IMO didn’t handle the descent too brilliantly.
Dancing Brave was certainly the greatest Derby winner that never was.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Yes, I agree about the track. As I mentioned earlier, the horse drifted on the camber at a crucial stage. But he was still ridden too far out of his ground.
I suppose you could argue that Eddery gave the horse a similar ride at Longchamp. Only this time there was no camber, the horse was more mature and Eddery knew the horse stayed.
Dancing Brave certainly came from a fair way back at Longchamp.
But I think they’d gone a stronger pace than at Epsom where the problem was Shahrastani simply wasn’t stopping as Walter Swinburn had kicked for home after sitting handy just off that relatively-modest early pace.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Regarding Dancing Brave, I agree with everything Ian has said.
It was not Starkey’s fault.As for “riding to get the trip”, I think it’s sometimes wrongly expressed and / or wrongly interpreted.
It’s not imo necessarily that riding from the back of the field requires any less stamina than riding from the front. It is instead a matter of settling in the race. Just because a horse settles well in a mile race does not mean it will definitely do the same at a mile and a half. Any horse coming from Guineas to Derby is obviously going up 4f in trip and therefore needs to go slower at Epsom than Newmarket, much slower than the horse has ever done before in a race… And if a slow 12f pace then slower still.Getting in behind a whole load of horses helps to settle the majority of horses.
The less a horse settles the more energy it uses and – as a result – the less finishing energy it has. For “finishing energy” read stamina.
ie The more a horse relaxes / settles the more stamina it will show.
Therefore, “riding to get the trip” can often help stamina.However – as in Dancing Brave’s Derby – if the race is comparatively slowly run any horse coming from the rear has a positional disadvantage.
Value Is EverythingThat said, imo changing a horse’s natural style of racing too much is a negative. eg Changing from a prominent running style in the Guineas to being held up can often disappoint the racehorse; itself leading to a poor performance.
Value Is EverythingThe Derby acceptors
1 Buckaroo Joseph O’Brien
2 Changingoftheguard Aidan O’Brien
3 Desert Crown Sir Michael Stoute
4 Eydon Roger Varian
5 Glory Daze Andy Oliver
6 Grand Alliance Charlie Fellowes
7 Hoo Ya Mal Andrew Balding
8 Ivy League Aidan O’Brien
9 Lysander William Haggas
10 Masekela Andrew Balding
11 Nahanni Charlie Appleby
12 Piz Badile Donnacha O’Brien
13 Royal Patronage Charlie & Mark Johnston
14 Sir Bob Parker David Menuisier
15 Sonny Liston Charlie Hills
16 Star Of India Aidan O’Brien
17 Stone Age Aidan O’Brien
18 United Nations Aidan O’Brien
19 Walk Of Stars Charlie Appleby
20 Westover Ralph Beckett
21 West Wind Blows Simon & Ed CrisfordThe Derby scratchings
Bluegrass Aidan O’Brien
Cash David Simcock
Claymore Jane Chapple-Hyam
Dillian Michael Bell
Duke De Sessa Dermot Weld
El Bodegon James Ferguson
Eldar Eldarov Roger Varian
Franz Strauss John and Thady Gosden
French Claim Paddy Twomey
Green Team Owen Burrows
Lionel David Menuisier
Luxembourg Aidan O’Brien
Magisterial John and Thady Gosden
Mr McCann Hugo Palmer
New London Charlie Appleby
Point Lonsdale Aidan O’Brien
Savvy Victory Sean Woods
Sea Stone Ismail Mohammed
Temple Of Artemis Aidan O’Brien
Waterville Aidan O’Brien
White Wolf Saeed bin Suroor
Zechariah Martyn MeadeI am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Very odd dettori booked for piz baddle. I certainly think he has a chance but im sure frankie would have thought hed get changing of the guard. Its got that look of either star of india or united nations winning with either seamie or wayne lordan on board.
Good to hear that ITV has signed up Steve Cauthen to be part of their Derby team. At least there will be someone who is worth listening to!
Far and away my all-time favourite jockey – I will actually unmute the TV when he’s on.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Lordon was on Changingoftheguard two starts back when winning his maiden, Mickey.
Heffernan on him in two unsuccessful races last year.
Coolmore may want Wayne to renew his successful partnership…
Or
Frankie doesn’t want to be on a horse he suspects is going to be used as a pacemaker.
Or
Frankie thinks Piz Badile is a better horse.To be fair the Ballysax has worked out pretty well so far.
Value Is EverythingCould Buckaroo run in both the Irish 2000 and the Derby?
Supposedly “outstayed” in the Ballysax, but arguably would have won had he and Piz Badile’s race positions been reversed. ie Piz Badile came from mid-div and had a charmed run up the inner around the turn while Buckaroo came around the whole field.More have raced in the Irish 1000 and Oaks in recent times, but don’t see why he couldn’t.
Value Is EverythingGrundy won the 1975 Irish 2,000 Guineas before winning The Derby.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"What was the story with Point Lonsdale being taken out.?
not good enough or something elseBlackbeard to conquer the World
Good question because, unless Ivy League is a stone better then he’s shown so far, Ballydoyle have absolutely let this race go begging.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"
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