- This topic has 151 replies, 48 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 10 months ago by
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I can see no reason why the winner should be disqualified; he did nothing wrong and had to go round all the horses.
The lesson, this season, seems to be that it pays to stay back for most of the race. I think New Approach did that at Epsom.
It is doubtful that Johnny knew where the winner was at the time of the veering today, imo. How do the theorists know that team Coolmore were not trying win with 150/1 shot Bashkirov, if they believe the veering was part of the "plan"?
What this does show once again, however, is that the whip may not be the essential tool needed for "steering/braking "and "general control", as most of the orthodox members here maintain, whenever the subject is discussed. That’s the important issue that anyone, who really cares about the game, should be concentrating on, perhaps.
As for horses being deliberately taken out, well, yes, I thought that was common knowledge: it looked obvious enough to me when I saw it first about fifty or sixty years ago. A season of watching the horrendous bandit crap on the AW, a few years back, really consolidated the point. I also thought that a similar event happened in the Epsom Derby this year.
That’s racing!
I am just asking the question mate.
Am not sure on what I would like to see. A disqualification seems to be over doing things.
But if nothing is done it encourages these things to happen in the future. Murtagh should have known this might happen.
Do not forget we are talking about many millions of pounds at stake in these races, stud fees etc.
I suppose not just in this race, but with all riding offences I think deterants should be stronger, it should not be just the jockeys to lose out but connections too. May be then there would not be so many offences.
Mark
Value Is EverythingATR clearly showed all O’Brien’s jockey’s talking in a group together before the race so obviously they at least discussed tactics. The first thought I had is maybe they were discussing how to get Tartan Bearer beat thought maybe they’d try and box him in.
Everyone knows how O’Brien works he does use team tactics to a degree or does anyone actually think every one of his entries is there to win the race?
The question I would ask is – is it wrong to do so and where do you draw the line?
Do not forget we are talking about many millions of pounds at stake in these races, stud fees etc. "
I haven’t forgotten, Mark.
Just can’t see what the winner did wrong. That’s all.
Seamas was pretty bullish about his chances in the pre-race interview I heard. He ran a good race , imo.… and don’t forget today’s winner was only a head behind Tartan Bearer in the Dante, so is no mug.
I don’t think Murtagh veered across deliberately, however his whip use was questionable IMO.
If we are talking team tactics I think the move by Hindu Kush to allow Alessandro Volta through on the inside 4f from home was of more interest.
I don’t think for a moment that Murtagh could have predicted Alessandro Volta’s wild overreaction to the right-handed whip. However, did he have to go at him right-handed, and was there nothing he could do to stop the horse’s drift?
Since Curtain Call’s run was aborted as well as Tartan Bearer’s, I don’t see why Alessandro wasn’t placed fifth behind both TB and CC.
Re team tactics: Ballydoyle is always open to this criticism when anything goes amiss (and it certainly did today!) in a race with so many of their runners. Why did they choose to run two pacemakers today? Surely, if Bashkirov wasn’t there for the pace, they didn’t expect him to beat their other horses, did they? Admittedly, he finished sixth (I think) which was pretty good after initially being up with the pace.
Pretty sure that at least up to this point AOB hasn’t known which of his not quite top class middle distance 3 year olds was the best – or even the best two, ergo the huge number of runners in both Derbies. But the fact remains that no other stable has the equine and/or financial resources to do this, so it leaves a bad taste. (And I’m a fan of AOB and have great respect for Coolmore.)
After all that, I forgot to write that I’ve always liked Frozen Fire and backed him e/w today.
I’ve read some nonsense on here but what Ginger and Himself have written takes the biscuit. To suggest that a jockey would forfeit a winnning chance to help a stablemate he couldn’t even see is patent nonsense. To further suggest the winner, who was blameless, should be disqualified is sillier still. I thought the stewards got it spot on reversing the placings and taking no action against JM. I also thought the winner won on merit. Grow up lads, you’ve got no clue.
Carvillshill, in my opinion the last sentence in your post is unnecessary and the post would read much better for it not being there.
Colin
In a controversial race, reckon the best horse on the day won.
As for the interference, don’t think Murtagh did it deliberately,but how he avoided a ban escapes me. Compare with Hanagan getting two days at Newcastle on Saturday. Certainly UK stewards take a view that riders should do more to prevent interference than just getting the whip into the correct hand (and Murtagh was slow doing that as he interfered with several rivals) .
As for team tactics and horses running on their merits I concur that Mc Cabe on the pacemaker looking over his right shoulder on the home turn and letting Murtagh up the rail merited investigation.
By the way, interesting which connections accepted the interference with good grace and which didn’t- some impressions confirmed.
I think Murtagh realised that that his horse wasn’t gong to play a part in the finish and that he took upon himself to negate the chances of the two English based runners. He saw that Tartan Bearer ( the biggest threat ) had loomed up and was beginning to hit full throttle.
Frozen Fire was the beneficiary of this action, and as a consequence he was allowed a free, unimpeded run. Look at the race again in full, and analyse the riding and tactics of team O’Brien. A stitch up, if ever I saw one. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it.
One of the most unbelievable theories I’ve heard ouside of an episode of the X-Files.
I’m trying to remember what happened in last years Arc; saw todays race on a screen at Uttoxeter and it just looked a complete mess at the end..very unsatisfactory result to a race that I was really looking forward to.Can’t help but feel that if there are several Coolmore horses in this years Arc and something like this happens again the French won’t be quite so forgiving. I don’t think that what happened today was deliberate, but it must be difficult enough riding in a race without having to worry about all the other horses from the same yard.
It absolutely beggars belief that anyone could be of the opinion that Murtagh deliberately veered violently across the track to take out two horses so one of his stablemates could win.
As Rory says, I’ve seen more believable storylines in an episode of the X-Files.
Does anyone really think that, whilst riding out a hard finish, Murtagh was fully aware of where Frozen Fire was – he was on the other side of the track and well behind him, remember – and not only that, then decided to use tactics to help him win by violently swerving over in the direction of FF and risk taking him out as well??
My, oh my.
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While I don’t agree that the move was in any way deliberate, I can certainly see the reasons for thinking so, given the increasing cynicism which Coolmore seem to be adopting with their ‘team’ tactics.
Why, if it isn’t acceptable for the Shergar Cup, is it tolerated in gp1 races?Jaysus what crap! I presume John Magnier was on the grassy knoll at the time…..
JohnJ.
Don’t think you can blame J.Murtagh for anything. imo, in an attempt to win the race, AV has probably been put under more pressure than at any time in his life, and has become almost uncontrollable. He impeded TB & CC because they just happened to be the closest horses to him. No conspiricy there. It is a shame, because he did ruin any chance they may have had.
I think the other team tactics comments are fair. This pacemaker moving away from the rail & leaving the shortest way clear for JM (like in the Queen Anne) is imo not really acceptable. Washington Irving got a strangish ride as well. He was my pick, I’m not sure if I had picked a pacemaker or just a horse that ran bad. I think I’d has been a bit fed up (& frustrated) if I’d backed him.
The lively Ballydoyle jockey celebrations, were imo possibly ill-judged as well, given the way the end of the race panned out. Probably has added more fuel to the fire.
I remember Fantastic Light going up the inner of their pacemaker to go on and beat Galileo by a head in the Irish Champion.
To me as long as you are not actually deliberately impeding another horse, having a plan in place is just intelligent pre race planning as far as im concerned, a lot of bul talked about team tactics IMO.
lol jonjo
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