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Give it rest, Kendal Cavalier.
I’m no horseman, but I’ve seen pretty much all of Denman’s races – hurdles and fences – and to my (un-trained) eye, he looked burly in the paddock. This, combined with the way he came right off the bridle after the cross-fence, leads me to conclude that the horse was under-cooked for the race.
It’s an opinion – nothing else.
Perhaps now, you could cease your tiresome "armchair" jive – it’s only making you look like a tit.
Denman isn’t a classy bridle horse like Kauto is he’s a wind up horse so he’s never going to look like he’s running all over everything with the jockey sitting motionless.
There is little question that Denman was "short" but I don’t really see how that is particularly relevant given his superiority over the rest of the field and it certainly doesn’t explain his jumping.
I’m guessing that Denman was not at full fitness. It’s a slightly different thing to your suggestion that he has deliberately left Denman unfit, because he prefers Kauto Star to win the Gold Cup.
How eloquent Grasshopper.
Of course it could be that Niche Market and Tricky Trickster are fast improving horses, which they certainly appear to be (ignoring NM’s last run). Denman was never going to win by 35-40 lengths.
I particularly commend Bob Buckler and indeed PFN for sending both NM and TT out to win the AON because with the National weights three days away what incentive was there to get near Denman and in that respect the integrity of this wonderful sport remains firmly intact.
Very very disappointing…………I’ll not wave the white flag for the Gold Cup yet though, as someone said earlier AP has to spend plenty of time at Nicholls to get to know and get the feel of Denman. The big race is still on IMHO.
It’s hatrdly an exact science, is it.
Unlike presenting a horse at a fence! You get the basics right first to give the horse a chance to show how fit it is. Denman was hardly having the sink thrown at him when he made his first error.
What’s the point of this thread and the appreciation thread? There was already a lengthy thread about McCoy and Denman. I would have thought the people who suggested it wasn’t an issue would have just kept quiet but it seems some people can never admit when they get something wrong.
I have followed most of the comments made about ST and AP. Nasty and horrible but so typical of the racing world.
The connections of Denman had no need to be spiteful when replacing ST with AP. They obviously know nowt about horses as some of them (horses) do have a preference over who, or at least what type of jockey, is sitting on their back.
If only they could choose their owners and trainers too!Kauto Star was undercooked when he won his AON and Denman was probably likewise.
Nicholls said to C4 after Kauto Star won his first Gold Cup:
"at Newbury he was half-fit, we didn’t want him right for the AON. It was all about today."
I have followed most of the comments made about ST and AP. Nasty and horrible but so typical of the racing world.
The connections of Denman had no need to be spiteful when replacing ST with AP. They obviously know nowt about horses as some of them (horses) do have a preference over who, or at least what type of jockey, is sitting on their back.
If only they could choose their owners and trainers too!I’m sure if the Tank could choose his trainer he’d be down with the legend that is Phillip Hobbs,going for a nice dip in the Bristol channel a few times each week.
As for his owners?
I’m saying nowt about the gobby mockney.
Apart from that he’s a gobby mockney.I’m guessing that Denman was not at full fitness. It’s a slightly different thing to your suggestion that he has deliberately left Denman unfit, because he prefers Kauto Star to win the Gold Cup.
I never said he intentionally left him unfit, i asked whether or not Kauto Star would have been so ‘over-cooked’ as you put it. After all, you’re the one who said he didn’t look fit.
Horse looked big in the paddock, and came right off the bridle after the cross fence. .
Had a similar thought too, but I do have trouble assessing the fitness of such naturally big, gross horses so wouldn’t want to make too much of that, or rather wouldn’t put unequivocal trust in it
What was noticeable was his head carriage on the approach to the fourth last which veered from its normal gun-barrel straight and stretched to cocked and up in the air (relatively speaking) after McCoy shook the reins, as if the horse either resented the gentle reminder, or was tiring rapidly, or was hurting, or a combination thereof.
The mistake caused by the put-down would suggest this otherwise exemplary fencer horse was not happy, for whatever reason. Afterwards the stride went along with everything else and McCoy was left with a ‘dead’ horse; who could blame him for trying to roust him rather than let him pop, as he was beaten (IMO) if left to his own devices. And infact was probably beaten whatever McCoy might have managed to get out of him
It also struck me that when running loose Denman’s ears were a little pinned-back which suggests (again) all was not well physically or mentally, though he did jump all the fences admittedly
Most unsatisfactory: not McCoy’s ride – although I am prepared to entertain the argument Denman should not have been shaken up after the cross-fence – but the way Denman, to my eyes anyway, emptied.
Denman on song is one of the most wonderful chasers I’ve seen but when his career is over the phrase ‘not always easy to catch right’ may appear in the more thoughtful eulogies
Now the mental dust has settled I’m starting to look at this whole affair slightly differently.
I still believe AP made two error of judgment today but that is by the by as the last one was not unsimilar to the jump that felled him at Aintree.I really saddens me to say that I’m starting to think Denman’s best is behind him, I don’t think he ever really got over his health problems, yes he was magnificent in The Henessey but he’s got the heart of a lion and animals (and humans )can sometimes draw on great hidden strengths, but not again and again.
When Sam looked back through his legs in 2008 he must have been thinking "I can believe how easy this is"
When Tony looked back through his legs today and saw the gap not increasing he must have been thinking "Looks like I’m going to have to earn my fee today"I’d hate to see him show up once to often (Istabraq, Doran’s Pride) and tarnish his amazing reputation.
In another post discussing a different horse also suffering a setback/injury TAPK said he feels that an injury always leaves a black mark on a horse’s CV.
Good point, OK some seem to cope with it and come back as good as ever, Captain Cee Bee to use a recent example, but for every CCB there’s a Nicanor or a Nick Dundee who are a shadow of their former selves (I’m aware ND’s injury may well have been far more serious than Denmans heart problem but his name came to mind as an example.)Maybe Denman needs a good rest and a happy (semi) retirement, if he’s missing racing sent him Hunting, he’d be a hell of a bet in The Foxhunters in a year or two but he looked a little sore to me pulling up so don’t send to this years The Gold Cup unless he’s 100% and full of himself again with a jockey he likes (Sam Thomas)on his back.
A year or two ago he moped and sulked for months when his regular work rider was away having a baby, he’s like a faithful dogLets face it denman should have been able to win this race half fit he had so much in hand in the ratings,he looked as though he was not going on as strong as he usually does,although i am not a mccoy fan i like to see winning jockey and horse combinations kept together,whether that would have made difference who knows.
Very very disappointing…………I’ll not wave the white flag for the Gold Cup yet though, as someone said earlier AP has to spend plenty of time at Nicholls to get to know and get the feel of Denman. The big race is still on IMHO.
Sir
This was not the great Lester Piggott getting beat in a photo in The Arc on your exemplary namesake, (God I loved that horse!!)this was AP getting beat on a 1-7 chance in a field not fit to lick his hooves by setting him wrongly at his fences
I HAVE ALWAYS FELT IT WAS WRONG FOR SAM THOMAS TO BE JOCKED OFF DENMAN & ALTHOUGH I AM A TOTAL KAUTO STAR FAN I FELT THAT DENMAN LOOKED A LITTLE SORE WHEN HE WAS CAUGHT & HOPE THE HE IS GOING TO BE OK ALTHOUGH I WOULDN’T BE DISAPPOINTED IF HE MISSED THE GOLD CUP. BUT IF HE DOES RACE I HOPE HE HAS SAM BACK AS HIS PILOT.
Interesting point made by Cheltenhamspecialist [and TAPK]. Denman is supposedly quite a sulky sort of individual and it’s probably difficult to get them right mentally when they’re like that. I remember what they said about his work rider being away as well. Kauto Star seems more of a happy go lucky ‘I love everbody’ sort of horse so must be a lot easier to train. However, it’s the sort of thing that just makes racing all the more interesting, and you realise the trainers don’t just have to deal with the physical well being of the horse.Can’t help but feel that the choice of jockey is even more important than usual in this case. Fascinating stuff imo.
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