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one question,can Canford Cliffs, frankel run a 1.33 mile? SYT has and made all the running
Times clocked on the same track don’t translate literally day-to-day, let alone times clocked in different countries. Average Japanese milers have clocked 1:31. Frankel’s fastest mile time in his 4 tries is 1:37.3. The lowest class horses in Hong Kong on the verge of compulsory retirement regularly beat that.
Of course that wasn’t my point, my CC and SYT example works perfectly well as a hypothetical in the context of my argument. I was commenting on the methodology of several users here, not SYT: being stronger on the line is no proof of superior stamina.
I’m confident SYT had too much speed (he accelerated past Workforce, he didn’t just evenly gallop past a tiring horse) so I doubt Workforce could’ve won if held up longer. He has a long sprint having famously started his run 3.5f out in the Derby. He took off only 2.5f out in the Arc but due to traffic problems if anything.
I can see why JJM allows for the possibility the ride cost WF because SYT took a while to pick up but maybe this explains why. It IS very pronounced in the replay.When heff went up sides a bit clump of dirt flew up from the ground…a falsh patch of ground that stopped the horse getting into full stride earlier. Once he got into stride he was fine but that was interesting. Look at the dust fly from the turf…either a false patch or a old hoof print but was fairly remarkable if he did lose his footing and still win.
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To my eyes Ryan Moore executed ‘the plan’ perfectly, taking up the running entering the straight to ensure full use of his stamina and to blunt SYT’s speed. In a perfect world, Confront could have led him a little faster and a little longer (he showed no signs of tiring when allowing WF through), but it’s wrong to suppose WF would have finished any faster if held up any longer – at 10f on fast ground, he just isn’t a speed horse.
Imo, it’s also plain daft comparing Aussie times with UK times for aa number of reasons I set out earlier. Anyone doubting this should check out the standard times on the respective straight courses (Usually only 5 or 6f ‘down under’). Standard times for Australian sprints are generally 3-4 secs faster than ours, and even the most myopic tribalist can’t possibly believe their sprinters are that superior.
Trying to compare times from country to country is so ridiculous it’s not true.
Why is it that our Australian members are all loud-mouths that flare up within 5 or 6 posts? It’s pathetic, immature and childish. Just debate properly and stop resorting to your whining because somebody disagrees.
Seems to be a ridiculous notion that horses with a turn of foot need further. What? In America, they have rather a ‘dim’ view of closers, because generally they looked flattered by the way they race. If they come flying from behind and get beaten a length, they’re thought of as unlucky and given another chance and another chance and another chance. Then they think maybe the horse needs a step-up in trip before the exact same thing happens. To be honest, a much better mentality than ours.
It’d be interesting to see So You Think over a mile here, but obviously it wouldn’t happen. Coolmore already own part of Canford Cliffs so those 2 wouldn’t take each other on and nothing else really fits into his schedule. He was beaten in both attempts over the trip Down Under, but did win a Group 1 over 9f.
It was agreed by most people that Ryan Moore on SYT at Ascot took off far too early because the pacemaker Jan Vermeer was cooked before the corner. In this race Confront set a good, honest pace. Moore once again took off at the half mile. Either he wanted to make it a staying test or he doesn’t understand pace. He cruelled SYT at Ascot by setting off so early. Believe he did the same thing yesterday with Workforce. Having said that, if the Eclipse was another 100 yards, SYT would have won by 3 lengths.
Regarding Rewilding, I think he has improved massively since Epsom and he was entitled to do so when you see his half sister not really have a outstanding 3 year old career but just got better and better with every race and season, same can be said of Rewilding imo, think So You Think was genuinely beaten by a good horse in Rewilding but sure, there are better 10f horses out there surely? I’d see Frankel beating them both at York.
interesting observation about a horse who has never run beyond a mile, to say he would beat the world’s best over further.
Some interesting posts labelling all Aussie posters here as "having a chip on their shoulder" or being loud mouthed. I think you will find that all countries have posters that argue intelligently & others that are ignorant. Where is Mr Wilson by the way? How dare a horse from the colonies beat a Derby/Arc winner!!
I don’t know why some people seem to think that hype surrounding So You Think is his fault! He tries his best every start. No matter who he has raced he has raced with distinction. No, he isn’t the 2nd coming, how often does that happen? A French 3yo will win the Arc (well, a 3yo at least), when was the last time that this DIDN’T happen? The weight scale favours them. A pity Europe’s best race is a restricted one.. but that is another story.
If So You Think doesn’t run in the Arc it isn’y HIM whom is doging, it is Coolmore, the same responsible re the hype!
So You Think did all he could on Saturday, he beat the untouchable Derby/Arc winner. I’ve got no doubt that he could beat Frankel over 2000m, no doubt at all, especially if they continue to ride him (Frankel) in the absurd way.
I hope they take him to the Arc but they probably won’t. Hopefully a 3rd Cox Plate then but it won’t be the same without Bart.
By the way, while I aknowledge that both Sea The Stars & Zarkarva where fantastic horses, I think that Shaby (?) summed it up pretty well. They didn’t race after 3 as many Euro champions don’t, SMS may regret running WF but I applaude the decision to continue with him.
Some interesting posts labelling all Aussie posters here as "having a chip on their shoulder" or being loud mouthed. I think you will find that all countries have posters that argue intelligently & others that are ignorant. Where is Mr Wilson by the way? How dare a horse from the colonies beat a Derby/Arc winner!!
I don’t know why some people seem to think that hype surrounding So You Think is his fault! He tries his best every start. No matter who he has raced he has raced with distinction. No, he isn’t the 2nd coming, how often does that happen? A French 3yo will win the Arc (well, a 3yo at least), when was the last time that this DIDN’T happen? The weight scale favours them. A pity Europe’s best race is a restricted one.. but that is another story.
If So You Think doesn’t run in the Arc it isn’y HIM whom is doging, it is Coolmore, the same responsible re the hype!
So You Think did all he could on Saturday, he beat the untouchable Derby/Arc winner. I’ve got no doubt that he could beat Frankel over 2000m, no doubt at all, especially if they continue to ride him (Frankel) in the absurd way.
I hope they take him to the Arc but they probably won’t. Hopefully a 3rd Cox Plate then but it won’t be the same without Bart.
By the way, while I aknowledge that both Sea The Stars & Zarkarva where fantastic horses, I think that Shaby (?) summed it up pretty well. They didn’t race after 3 as many Euro champions don’t, SMS may regret running WF but I applaude the decision to continue with him.
Mate So You Think won’t beat Frankel if he has a three length start. He wouldn’t have beaten Sea The Stars or Zarkava either. Workforce isn’t an "untouchable" Derby winner at all, he’s a good one but he’s not an exceptional horse and So You Think is the same.
Some interesting posts labelling all Aussie posters here as "having a chip on their shoulder" or being loud mouthed. I think you will find that all countries have posters that argue intelligently & others that are ignorant. Where is Mr Wilson by the way? How dare a horse from the colonies beat a Derby/Arc winner!!
I don’t know why some people seem to think that hype surrounding So You Think is his fault! He tries his best every start. No matter who he has raced he has raced with distinction. No, he isn’t the 2nd coming, how often does that happen? A French 3yo will win the Arc (well, a 3yo at least), when was the last time that this DIDN’T happen? The weight scale favours them. A pity Europe’s best race is a restricted one.. but that is another story.
If So You Think doesn’t run in the Arc it isn’y HIM whom is doging, it is Coolmore, the same responsible re the hype!
So You Think did all he could on Saturday, he beat the untouchable Derby/Arc winner. I’ve got no doubt that he could beat Frankel over 2000m, no doubt at all, especially if they continue to ride him (Frankel) in the absurd way.
I hope they take him to the Arc but they probably won’t. Hopefully a 3rd Cox Plate then but it won’t be the same without Bart.
By the way, while I aknowledge that both Sea The Stars & Zarkarva where fantastic horses, I think that Shaby (?) summed it up pretty well. They didn’t race after 3 as many Euro champions don’t, SMS may regret running WF but I applaude the decision to continue with him.
Mate So You Think won’t beat Frankel if he has a three length start. He wouldn’t have beaten Sea The Stars or Zarkava either. Workforce isn’t an "untouchable" Derby winner at all, he’s a good one but he’s not an exceptional horse and So You Think is the same.
Cannot help thinking how STS won the Guineas so easily before going on to the Derby and then the Ark. He was a high class miler as well as a Derby winner.
"Mate So You Think won’t beat Frankel if he has a three length start. He wouldn’t have beaten Sea The Stars or Zarkava either"
Is that an opinion or a staement Ian?
Re Frankel, I hope that we find out. I’d be interested to see what you’ve based your opinion on. I’ve based mine on So You Thinks record at 2000m. I can only guess that you’ve based yours on Frankel beating up other 3yos over a mile? Will be interesting to see if that form gets franked.
Re STS & Z – we will never know. Over 2000m at the same age, thus level weights, save for the fillies allowance, I think that it would be very close. Neither raced after their 3yo season so who knows what they would have done at 4 or 5.
The British & American fasination with 3yo racing intrigues me..
So it seems most people are in agreement that SYT DID improve for his Ascot win.
Here are the latest world rankings that have him improving 3lbs. Sounds about right to me.
http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-ra … orldclass/
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Cannot help thinking how STS won the Guineas so easily before going on to the Derby and then the Ark. He was a high class miler as well as a Derby winner.
Andyod
This notion – that if a horse is top class, he’s top class at all trips – is plainly wrong, as it is with human athletes.
Sea the Stars won the Guineas as an immature 3yo racing against other emergent horses, beating a Delegator that barely stayed 1m (even when mature) a nonentity in Gan Amhras, and a RVW that was never put into the race (at that time, connections had their eye on the Derby).
STS clearly developed on different lines to Delegator and RVW, becoming much more a middle distance horse, and there’s little doubt (imo) he would have got murdered in the latter’s Sussex.
Workforce (like Conduit before him) took his chance in the Eclipse but didn’t have the speed to win it. As with his stablemate, he’ll probably go on to better things over further, and people will no doubt use that form to elevate SYT, but the fact remains – it was one horse’s optimum trip, but not the other’s – and that does make a difference."Mate So You Think won’t beat Frankel if he has a three length start. He wouldn’t have beaten Sea The Stars or Zarkava either"
Is that an opinion or a staement Ian?
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Its a guarantee buddy. I don’t think a lot of people realise just how good Frankel is. They will learn eventually.
Reet hard,just shows how dumb trainers are. Imagine a world famous trainer sending out his best horse over a distance short of his best to be beaten by a horse racing at his best distance!It was inevitable that he would be beaten and he was.Dumb trainer!Seems to me that STSs ran at every distance and was never beaten. Who is to say what his best distance was?Best to discount the horses he beat that way we discount the horse hiself.Motivator was very fast, maybe short of the full mile.STSs had to be fast enough to collar him before the winning post arrived. And he did with ease.Oxx said that getting the Ark winner ready for the Guineas was the most difficut trick of all. Aidan made a mess of St.Nicklaus Abbey trying to get a Montjeu to win the Guineas.STSs had to win the Guineas without burning him up.
Horses who win the 2,000 Guineas and who then go on to win Group 1 races at a mile and a half tend be exceptional.
For example, in the modern era:
Royal Palace, Sir Ivor, Nijinsky, Brigadier Gerard, El Gran Senor, Dancing Brave, Nashwan, Sea The Stars.
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