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I can’t believe anyone can call Nashwan as good a horse as Sea The Stars. What did Nashwan ever beat, Terimon and Cacoethes both horses regualrly beaten at sub group one level. Did Cacoethes ever win a race after his Lingfield Derby trial? Indian Skimmer didn’t run to form against Nashwan and Warning was a miler who didn’t get anywhere near ten furlongs.
Yes Nashwan’s record was good but lets be honest the opposition that year was absolute tripe.
As for not winning races by wide margins Sea The Stars just isn’t the type. Take Rip Van winkle out of Saturdays race and he’d have probably beaten Conduit a couple of lengths. Sea The Stars quickened once then when Rip challenged him he quickened again. It takes some horse to do that.
So every horse who wins a Breeders Cup race is a World beater? Ever thought Conduit might have been a touch over-rated, better over a longer trip, better later in the season. Like ratings it is all a matter of opinion. I wouldn’t have Sea The Stars as the leader at any Championship distance as far as I am concerned they are:-
1M: Ghanaati
1M2F: Presvis
1M4F: Fame And GloryGreat shame Presvis wasn’t in the line up on Saturday. The ground and fast pace would have suited him ideally and I have a feeling he would have sustained his run that much better than Rip Van Winkle.
Ratings are opinions – formbook is fact. Formbook says Sea The Stars is better over 1m4f than Fame and Glory, regardless of opinions regarding pace etc.
A lot of people, myself included, admire the versatility of Sea The Stars.
Stilivi, what negative twist can you put on it being a record time for a Coral eclipse ?
this should be good- Total Posts 17716
So Sea The Stars wins the Guineas without breaking sweat (in the process beating the first and second home in the St James’s Palace), bags the Derby with an incredible mid-race move (running 44s for a section of the race that usually takes between 47s and 49s, beating everything Ballydoyle had to offer) and quickens twice to beat ‘the best horse Johnny Murtagh has ever ridden’ in a time 3.6s quicker than standard (with a classic and Breeders’ Cup winner 5l adrift), and he’s still not the best at any of the three distances?
What miserable planet are you on, stilvi?
It’s extremely complicated but I think they’ll do the following;
Fame And Glory: Juddmonte (extra 88 yards will stand him in good stead) – Arc (- BC Turf?)
Rip Van Winkle: Sussex
– Irish Champion – Breeders’ Cup Classic
Mastercraftsman: Jacques le Marois – QE2 – Champion Stakes
1 down, 7 to go.
The handicapper has put him on a par with Nashwan who absolutely destroyed Indian Skimmer a top class 1m2f horse in the Eclipse then won the King George 3 weeks later
Indian Skimmer was not a top class horse in 1989.
Sea The Stars reminds me of Sir Ivor. The horse is class, he has that air of knowing he is good, he stands out a mile in the paddock, he is the top horse in Europe this year, period.
Sea The Stars reminds me of Sir Ivor. The horse is class, he has that air of knowing he is good, he stands out a mile in the paddock, he is the top horse in Europe this year, period.
Sea The Stars also reminds me of that NH horse Viking Flagship who had tremendous battling qualities.
Stilivi, what negative twist can you put on it being a record time for a Coral eclipse ?
this should be goodWikipedia have it wrong as Mtoto’s time is incorrect, he isn’t quite the fastest, Mtoto still holds it for his 1987 win with 2’03:33.
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Linford Christie was a good sprinter. Carl Lewis was a great sprinter.
Donovan Bailey was a good sprinter. Maurice Greene was a great sprinter.
Frankie Fredericks was a good sprinter. Michael Johnson was a phenomenal sprinter.
Butch Reynolds was a good 400m runner. Michael Johnson was a phenomenal 400m runner.
Asafa Powell is a good sprinter. Usain Bolt is a freakish sprinter.
The perceived ‘class’ of every athlete is marked relative to those against which they compete week in, week out. Lewis, Greene and Johnson were leagues apart for much of their careers and can be deservedly labelled great, but with Usian Bolt breaking every record known to man are they now any less so?
Of course not. They carried all before them in their time and can’t, in any way, be accurately compared to their successors. Who’s to say how a primed Carl Lewis would perform against the best we have today, given current conditions, training aids and practice regimes? It’s nigh-on impossible and logic follows that the same is true of most sports.
Was George Best better than Cristiano Ronaldo? Was Marco Van Basten a greater striker than Fernando Torres? Was Ayrton Senna better than Michael Schumacher?
It seems to me that every other sport exists without the need to deny the abilities of its current stars, choosing instead to appreciate them alongside the heroes of days gone by; so why does horseracing have to be so different? Why is it unreasonable to hold Sea The Stars in the same acclaim as the likes of Mill Reef, Nijinsky and Dancing Brave, when common sense tells you that he’s a class apart (just as they were)?
Carl Lewis won olympic gold in 1984 by 0.2s, with Bolt winning by an extrapolated 0.37s in 2008 (he actually won by 0.2s, but slowed substantially to celebrate before crossing the line). Is Lewis merely ‘good’ because Bolt is now ‘great’?
Don’t make me laugh.
People within horse racing also say that Epsom is a tougher test than the Curragh believe it or not. Therefore his derby win is underestimated by some also.
What some people don’t appreciate is that the opening furlongs of the Derby (from the gate to around the 7 furlong pole ) are run on one of the steepest gradients you’ll find on a racetrack , so horses ,often, have some very hard running to do before they reach the top of Tattenham Hill. In addition, the track, obviously, features a severe camber, and a downhill section , which , along with the aforementioned energy-sapping opening part of the race, makes for a very tough test .
Linford Christie was a good sprinter. Carl Lewis was a great sprinter.
Donovan Bailey was a good sprinter. Maurice Greene was a great sprinter.
Frankie Fredericks was a good sprinter. Michael Johnson was a phenomenal sprinter.
Butch Reynolds was a good 400m runner. Michael Johnson was a phenomenal 400m runner.
Asafa Powell is a good sprinter. Usain Bolt is a freakish sprinter.
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Slightly off topic but thats an interesting bunch of athletes you’ve listed there, some who have doubts hanging over them as to how they attained their "greatness". Christie was banned at the end of his career, Reynolds was banned for two years I believe, Greene was accused by Trevor Grahams drug supplier of using performance enhancing drugs, said he had bank transfer details or something like that (is that case still dragging on ?) and Carl Lewis admitted to failing tests during the 1988 Olympic trials which the USOC overturned and covered up. All four of course could well be innocent, particularly Greene as he never failed a test throughout his career and was a staunch anti-drug campaigner.
"Was George Best better than Cristiano Ronaldo? Was Marco Van Basten a greater striker than Fernando Torres? Was Ayrton Senna better than Michael Schumacher?"
Yes, yes and yes
"It seems to me that every other sport exists without the need to deny the abilities of its current stars, choosing instead to appreciate them alongside the heroes of days gone by; so why does horseracing have to be so different? Why is it unreasonable to hold Sea The Stars in the same acclaim as the likes of Mill Reef, Nijinsky and Dancing Brave, when common sense tells you that he’s a class apart (just as they were)?"
I have to say I’m impressed with Sea The Stars, he hasn’t looked remotely like getting beaten and I would say there has been something left in the tank in all three runs. On good ground I wouldn’t want to back against him thats for sure.
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I’m sure accusations have been thrown at almost every successful athlete at some stage of their career, but that has little to do with the point I was trying to make.
I reckon STS is the best 3yo colt we have seen in donkeys years and his rating as being equal to Nashwan is well deserved. I don’t think he is yet in the same league as the likes of Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave and Brigadier Gerard but he could be if he continues with his level of form for the rest of the season though the apparent choice of races for him doesn’t help.
It seems he will bypass the KG as the trainer feels it may come a bit too soon and instead head for the International and the Irish Champion and possibly the English Champion as it is felt he will not get his ground in the Arc.
If I owned STS provided he came out of the Eclipse ok I would go for the KG as for me he has already beaten the best out there over 10f so it is just more of the same. My main target would be the Leger as I really don’t understand how an owner could resist going for the Triple Crown and if he remained sound and got the ground the Arc. If he won all those that would be some record.
There was a time when Derby winners routinely stayed in training at four and went for the Ascot Gold Cup.
But times change and that idea is ludicruous now.
And that’s what’s happened to the Triple Crown – it’s become ludicrous.
Staying 1m 6f plus isn’t considered a commercially exciting feat any more
so Sea The Stars, like Nashwan, won’t even run at Doncaster.
So Sea The Stars wins the Guineas without breaking sweat (in the process beating the first and second home in the St James’s Palace), bags the Derby with an incredible mid-race move (running 44s for a section of the race that usually takes between 47s and 49s, beating everything Ballydoyle had to offer) and quickens twice to beat ‘the best horse Johnny Murtagh has ever ridden’ in a time 3.6s quicker than standard (with a classic and Breeders’ Cup winner 5l adrift), and he’s still not the best at any of the three distances?
What miserable planet are you on, stilvi?
Someone touched a raw nerve? Why is it such a big deal to you that you so badly need people to agree with you? It is the same theme with most of your posts.
It really is a very sad person who thinks they can define happy or miserable by what somebody thinks of a racehorse.
As for record times I have already given my opinion on that subject when discussing Rose Blossom on a Royal Ascot thread.
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