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A classic example of why ratings in isolation have their drawbacks. At this stage, you could make cogent arguments for rating the winner somewhere between 138 and 130 and there are few that could argue with whatevr conclusion you come up with.
Sea The Stars I didn’t think was anything like as good as he proved he was today fair play to him he looks like a genuine great horse.
134 Sea The Stars
132 Rip Van Winkle.Anyone else get similar ratings or am I being stupid?
Like David said you could rate STS between 130 and 138 depending on your outlook, but you’d have to give him at least 4lbs more than RVW. He won in relative comfort. I’d go:
136
132Wouldn’t go overboard about Rip either. Thought he had the run of the race and just didn’t want it badly enough when Murtagh delivered his challenge. Seemed to want to drift in behind Sea The Stars if anything, he certainly never looked liked getting past. Rip looks a bit lacking in the tenacity department, a trait in abundance in real champion racehorses.
Once again the price spoke volumes about the Ballydoyle horse. No problems with internet connectivity in County Tipp it seems.
Well done to John Oxx and his horse though, a fully deserved success.
Jeez you’re a hard man to please CR. Two excellent 3 year old colts giving their all and pulling clear of a good all-aged field- fantastic race. Make no mistake this is very strong form and these two will be right at the top come the end of the season. Rip got STS off the bridle and there was a moment when he looked like getting to him before STS quickened again. I saw no lack of resolution from the runner up and wouldn’t oppose him with anything but the winner over this trip. STS had a hard race today, reflecting very well on Rip- both enhanced their reputations massively.
CR you need to reign in your cynicism a bit IMVHO!Jeez you’re a hard man to please CR. Two excellent 3 year old colts giving their all and pulling clear of a good all-aged field- fantastic race. Make no mistake this is very strong form and these two will be right at the top come the end of the season. Rip got STS off the bridle and there was a moment when he looked like getting to him before STS quickened again. I saw no lack of resolution from the runner up and wouldn’t oppose him with anything but the winner over this trip. STS had a hard race today, reflecting very well on Rip- both enhanced their reputations massively.
CR you need to reign in your cynicism a bit IMVHO!From a sporting point of view thought it was a great race carvills, really enjoyed it and look forward to watching the free replay on RUK many times over the next few days.
Any perceived cynicism is looking at the race purely from a punting point of view. I thought today might have been the first time since HenryTheNavigator in the Guineas last year that a top class Ballydoyle colt not running in a prep race would have been available at a workingmans price. I still cant believe that a horse as good as they make him out to be went off at the price he did today, just doesn’t happen with Ballydoyle horses these days.
As regards the form, sure it was Rip’s best performance and yes he probably doesn’t have much opposition at 10 furlongs but we both know he’ll get a 130+ rating for today and go off at 4/6 the next time if the Oxx machine isn’t in the way.
I’ll have to look at it a few more times but for now I’m sticking with my doubts about Rip’s tenacity. I didnt see him put his body on the line today. Sure that may be very critical but we have to judge him by the highest standards.
And I stress once again I really enjoyed the race today.
Thought Sea The Stars and Rip Van Winkle were mightly impressive 3.6sec faster than standard just made it more impressive on paper.
Even if the trip was a minus point for Conduit he was truly put in his place by the two youngtsters, and Conduit was easy beating what was behind him, which makes Sea The Stars look even better
Would be quite a spectacle seeing the top 2 fighting it out in California, Sea The Stars the way he quickend when Rip Van Winkle challenged was awesome to see.
Where Rip Van Winkle goes next will be interesting, with Mastercraftsman going to York, maybe he will challenge his stablemate once again, was finally good to see the Rip Van Winkle in full flight finally, but if Murtagh says he is one of the best he has ever sat on what a shame he has to meet Sea The Stars.
Conduit you’d think will improve when he goes to Ascot but if he meets Sea The Stars I dont think the result will be reversed.
One of the best Eclipse’s in years.
I’d have thought RVWs price had a lot to do with the setback he suffered earlier in the week- first alluded to on the Morning Line this morning.
I’d be surprised if that injury was the real deal.
Would be extremely surprised to see any of the Ballydoyle Derby runners retired at the end of the season. All destined for a 4yo campaign IMO. Only horse I can see going to the paddocks in January is Mastercraftsman.
Why not? Soldier Of Fortune, Dylan Thomas, even High Chaparral, all kept on as 4yo’s after Irish Derby success.
Just with O’Brien having a few more for 4y/o career and Fame And Glorys almost near perfect record would be surprising if he is kep on, escpeially if he can win more G1’s which he is very capable of.
Jim McGrath’s call was magnificent. Best calll he has made in a long time.
Would be extremely surprised to see any of the Ballydoyle Derby runners retired at the end of the season. All destined for a 4yo campaign IMO. Only horse I can see going to the paddocks in January is Mastercraftsman.
I would disagree, with Rip van Winkle the most predictable retiree. Coolmore don’t yet have a son of Galileo on their books, and with today’s performance likely to make a win at Group 1 level a formality for RvW (presuming he avoids The Monster), they’ll be keen to retire him at season’s end.
Though your original point is an interesting one- many Coolmore 3-y-os this year have some unfinished business, so to speak, and a more sizeable amount of older horses in training in 2010 is far from out of the question IMO.
Sea The Stars looks
the
3 Y O of the season. OK, he doesn’t steam ahead and go 3, 4, 5 and 6 lengths clear like some classic horses but, as Mr Kinane mentioned, he does enough when he hits the front. STS is one of those horses who saps the stamina and takes the sting out of other horses.
Just think though, if Zarkava would’ve been kept in training and clashed with Sea The Stars. We can all dream eh?
Just think though, if Zarkava would’ve been kept in training and clashed with Sea The Stars.
Sorry if I’m taking the dream too far into reality, but I can’t see where they would have met. Zarkava would have been kept to predominantly 12f had she remained in training, whilst Sea The Stars will quite probably never see that trip again. The Eclipse could well have been the most likely contact point.
Just tell me when and where and I’ll be there
I would disagree, with Rip van Winkle the most predictable retiree. Coolmore don’t yet have a son of Galileo on their books, and with today’s performance likely to make a win at Group 1 level a formality for RvW (presuming he avoids The Monster), they’ll be keen to retire him at season’s end.
Yeah I recognise that but why would anybody possibly want Rip Van Winkle (unplaced in 3 Group 1s before finally being placed, let alone winning one) when New Approach is the superior racehorse (based on the current evidence).
Ballydoyle have quite a fair few problems this year, albeit good problems.
Obviously their main 3yo now for this year is Fame And Glory and they want to win the Arc with him. They’ve mentioned the ICS but will they want to take on Sea The Stars again with him, especially over the sharper trip? With him being by Montjeu, it’s going to be mighty hard for him to take on Sea The Stars over the trip and a loss would mean that he loses a fair bit of value at stud, especially when they have Dylan Thomas, High Chaparral and Galileo at stud, all of which (thereabouts) won the Derby and the ICS.
The obvious route for him would be Niel – Arc, maybe even the Breeders’ Cup Turf afterwards. This would make financial sense, since no horse has won both in the same calendar year, but then again, why would breeders want the genuine 12f Fame And Glory when all of their other core middle-distance sires (thereabouts) won Group 1s over 10f?
So the problem is that Mastercraftsman is too slow for a mile at Goodwood and Longchamp and it’s likely he’ll be beaten in the QE2 as well, despite the track suiting. So they need to run him over 10f in a Group 1 where he won’t clash with Rip or Fame.
It’s extremely complicated but I think they’ll do the following;
Fame And Glory: Juddmonte (extra 88 yards will stand him in good stead) – Arc (- BC Turf?)
Rip Van Winkle: Sussex – Irish Champion – Breeders’ Cup Classic
Mastercraftsman: Jacques le Marois – QE2 – Champion Stakes
If you had just read the plaudits you would have thought Sea The Stars had won this by ten lengths. The bare form shows that he has lost a length to a horse who in my opinion did not want to go past him. Sea The Stars has some fine qualities you would like to see in any racehorse (pedigree, confirmation, temperament, the ability to do just enough), but on performance alone he is not yet one of the greats. I doubt it will happen but I still hope he meets Fame And Glory in the Arc. There are other big pots but for me the Arc is still the race that matters most.
The bare form shows that he has lost a length to a horse who in my opinion did not want to go past him.
I don’t think that is the case, Rip Van Winkle went to challenge and Sea The Stars accelerated away when he was challenged, was an outstanding performance I thought and they left the others far behind.
Stilvi, you said "If you had just read the plaudits you would have thought Sea The Stars had won this by ten lengths"
It’s more to do with people acknowledging the horses versatility. It was contested at a fast pace, so he had to dig deep. No horses is ever gonnae do the field by 10L in this type of race. He showed power and pace to win the guineas. He showed staying power and temprement, with pace to win the Derby. Now he has shown his ability to win a race in a distance between his two classic wins at a high tempo thoughout, set by pacemakers. The horse just cruises nicely at any distance.
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