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Hi there
Just joined this forum having found this excellent thread.
Like several on here I too am an anorak of colours.
I have loads I am missing so will in time post them here.
Right Royal – White, purple hoops on body, white slvs purple cap.
Just came across a contraditcion to the Right Royal colours. According to the 1970 Directory Of The Turf Mme Couturie’s horses carried Black and white diamons, white sleeves, black cap.
Not sure where I sourced the other set I posted – possibly an old race card so I shall dig it out and see what I come up with. Apologies.
Hi all
I take belt to mean a sash – cross-belts makes sense then so I’m happy to leave it at that.
graduated hoops – excuse the clunky description that’s going to follow . Sir Alfred Butt’s colours are yellow with Grad. blue hoops.
take a solid yellow body with a normal sized/widthed blue hoop around the middle – above and below that a normal band of yellow – then a slightly thinner blue hoop – then normal width yellow then a still thinner blue hoop then yellow
try drawing it – might work.
re MacCalmont quarters/halves – have seen a pretty naive painting on a web site , something along the lines of "intaglio fine arts" and those are definite quarters , even on the sleeves which always looks odd to me – either halved or solid colours seem the norm.
the best painting of Isinglass I’ve seen is by Emil Adam and that looks like halves although if you look closely maybe a hint of a colour lower down before the jockeys breeches ? Tommy Loates was small but maybe not that small !! Then , have seen a painting of the Derby finish and definitely halved colours – more research.
Lot of typing to prove nothing – sorry.
No joy with Kincsem other than they look pale on the following website if you scroll down.
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Cambuscan.html
More research !! Cheers
Hi all, and welcome to Ivanjica and others new to this madhouse. Had a few computer problems that have eaten up all my research time so haven’t got much further, but may be of help with a few of Ivanjica’s "holes" – I will post later when I have had chance to invetigate further, but in the meantime
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigi … m=&pos=190
shows T.Pilkington (pre ww1) as red and grey hoops, red cap?
I have racecards with the Comtesse colours in, and will update this post later.
Incidentally Ivanjica, I believe a "belt" is usually a hoop (albeit a narrow one) weren’t the Duchess of Westminsters colours referred to as a a black belt?
The subject of belt/sash doesn’t seem straightforward does it.
Looking at the Raciana publication mentioned earlier in this thread ……( Bless that particular find on the internet )
Charles Brewer owned Robert The Devil and all pictures of him I’ve seen show a sash – colours are described though as Sky Blue Belt
Equally , Lord Hastings , owner of Melton , has a crimson belt yet there are pictures of Fred Archer , described as wearing Hastings’ colours , and again , it’s a sash.
Agree that “belt” rings a bell re Duchess of Westminster/Arkle and that was a thin hoop – pay your money and etc etc ….
It makes sense that a belt should be a sash, since we talk about "cross-belts", although the term "cross-sashes" has also been used.
Hi all
to help with Ivanjica’s missing ones, the 1923 racing calendar shows:
1906 – L Neumann – WHITE, BLACK and WHITE hooped slvs
1907 – W B Purefoy – LIGHTBLUE and BLACK hoops
1913 – A Belmont – SCARLET, MAROON slvs, BLACK cap
1948 – Sir A Butt – YELLOW, graduated BLUE hoops, BLUE cap (as advised)regarding G.Wilson 1933, and without wishing to put a spanner in Isinglass’ works – the same book shows:
G.T.Wilson – BLACK, one broad orange hoop on body and slvs??????
(As a generic question does anybody have categoric evidence whether such desrciptions mean orange hoop on slvs or orang sleeves – always bugged me!!)Is this all of them now?
Re the Comtesse, she had 2 runners in the 1969 Derby
PRINCE REGENT 3rd 13/2 trained by E.Pollet in FRance
Yellow, green slvs, yellow armbands, green capMOON MOUNTAIN 4th 28/1 trained V.O’Brien in IReland
Buttercup yellow, green hooped sleeves, green cap, yellow hoopcan we assume that the former were her first cols in the light of previous posts, and were the others 2nd cols or cols registered in Ireland?
Will post my missing ones when i’ve sorted the remnants of my computer crash!!!!!
p.s still think belt is a "narrow hoop"!!!!!
One thing i forgot to mention (been away from this thread too long) – Venture to Cognac was interested in Manny Boy – owned by Frank Pullen. Frank was quite a character in these parts (south of England) and had several horses with Josh Gifford – you may be interested in reading this:
http://www.findonvillage.com/0424_the_h … pullen.htm
confirms the colours too!!!!!
As promised – my gaps are listed below. Predominantly I’ve looked at post-war winners of "big" races (flat and NH) – eventually, I might manage a library of all group races (on the flat) – as yet its mainly group 1s with a few favourites thrown in – whence the stewards cup! – any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!
2000 gns
– 1966 – Kashmir II (P. Butler)Chelt Gold Cup
– 1926 – Koko – F.Barbour
– 1925 – Ballinode – C.BentleyArc
1968 – Vaguely Noble – Wilma Franklyn (consensus is "gold" but i’ve never had it confirmed)1961 – Molvedo – Egidio Verga
1957 – Oroso – Raoul Meyer
1954 – Sica Boy – Mrs Jean Cochery
Stewards Cup Goodwood
1954 – Ashurst Wonder – Mr R. MerrickKing George
1961 Right Royal 1961 King George (Mrs Jean Couturié)- thanks for the input guys – is there a concensus on this one?Champion Chase
1959 Quita Que Champion Chase 1959 (Mrs D. R. Brand)Hi Ile de B nice to have you back ; from the sound of your computer problems I trust you are currently archiving everything the old fashioned way – with paper & felt tip pens. Give us a call when you’ve finished in ten years time!!
Anyway , thanks for the extra homework over the summer holidays. Can give one now :-
P Butler ( Kashmir II ) Red , White AND Light Blue check Light Blue Cap.
got that from Rob Marriott at Weatherbys and also confirmed by B&H Book of 1973. Very small checks about a quarter of what you’d get on Nelson Bunker Hunts for example. P Butler also owned Breton , winner of 1969 Grand Criterium . There’s a picture of him in Tote Racing Annual 1970 – if I was technically minded I’d attach it.
Cheers for now
Thanks Isinglass,
rings a bell now – must have been one you gave me which got lost with many others in the crash!!
Computers are ok, but the coloured felt pens library from 1970 is still on the shelf!!!
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I have an (unrelated) question to which I wonder whether any of our silks experts have an answer?
Which owner’s colours from c.1894-1900 were
(French) Grey, Pink Sleeves and Cap
?
A rather fine gouache painting (in the current "Glasgow Boys" exhibition at Kelvingrove Gallery in Glasgow) features a horse winning a big race in these colours, at a racecourse which has been tentatively identified as Kempton – though to me it looks far more French than anything else (Deauville, Chantilly?)
The painting is called "The Racecourse, c. 1894-1900, by Joseph Crawhall.
Hi Pinza,
the only colours that I can remember broadly like that belonged to a A J Struthers who had plenty of good horses with John Dunlop for a few years (grey, pink slvs, chk cap), specifically a good stayer in the 70s that I ant remember the name of!!!!!
I think Mr Struthers was and maybe still is (?) a member of the Jockey Club too, so has the right connections!
Not much I know, and whether its relevant to cica 1900 I dont know!
….The painting is called "The Racecourse, c. 1894-1900, by Joseph Crawhall.
being this presumably:
Hi Pinza , have had a look at my "sources" such as they are and am not getting much joy to be honest.
The Raciana publication stops at 1890 ! There were quite a few owners with French Grey , Cerise slvs & cap 1860’s to 1880’s butI haven’t stumbled across any likely candidates around the time in question from my classic winner project.
Have seen the picture and it is very Dega-esque in style – to my uncultured eye anyway , so it has something of a French feel about it anyway hasn’t it. Jockey looks to be carrying a pound or two overweight.
Wonder if it is actually a specific horse or just that pink & grey go well together in the actual picture ?
End of Antiques Roadshow – sorry have been of no help at all.
- Total Posts 17716
Thank you Ile de Bourbon, Wit and Isinglass. I think the idea that the colours may be selected for aesthetic rather than realistic reasons is a good one, and I will pass that on.
Much of Crawhall’s excellent racecourse work was Degas-esque, and he spent plenty of time painting in France. I certainly feel too that this is far more likely to be one of the smart
fin-de-siecle
French venues, rather than Kempton: difficult to imagine crowds there looking quite so smart (even without thinking of today’s all-weather lot!)
At all events, the original is a splendid canvas, and strictly for Forum members, here’s a URL to a scan of my postcard of same (which looks a little more vibrant than the online graphic kindly tracked down by Wit.)
http://www.zarzuela.co.uk/mystery_silks_Crawhall.jpg
Thanks for the "inside" view Pinza – I agree its a splendid piece – my guess (and its only a guess) is that the attire suggests Royal Ascot or the Derby – Ascot’s a no-no because the numbers board is the wrong side of the grandstand (wouldn’t be down the course obstructing the view of the race), but Epsom is a possibility. I dont know what the stand at Epsom was like circa 1900, but I am sure Isinglass would know if a Derby winner wore those colours, so perhaps it was a supporting race at the Derby meeting?
No help I know, but gets us all thinking…..
Thanks for all the help guys.
Ile De Bourbon, it sounds like Moon Mountain ran in the same colours carried by Be My Guest whilst Prince Regent carried those which appear on the France Galop site – so I guess French trained ones carried the latter, a bit like the Marquesa De Moratalla’s colours slight variation between England and France.
Right Royal is definitely black and white diamonds, white sleeves, black cap (source: 1970 Dir. of the Turf/http://www2.france-galop.com/couleurs/CatcoNPro.aspx). My earlier surmise of white maroon stripes was completely wrong – I think I must have clicked the owner below Mme Couturie on the France Galop site in error!
Sorry I cannot help with any of the gaps you have at this stage I am afraid. Though it would seem you have a lot of the Arc ones I don’t have so will post another of my lists presently.
I am livid I missed the Kashmir II colours as I have a paperback copy of the B&H Book – I sometimes overlook it as to my mind it has a lot of annoying gaps. Though I have just noticed the B&H book show that the Butler silks in quesiton were in fact red, white and light blue check, l.blue cap. A slight, but colourful addition.
The span of the B&H book is limited and given the work I am sure it involved should/could have been far more detailed across the generations. Some sets of silks are probably pointless given they are of small owners of that period who never owned any famous horses – yet obvious ommissions include the Wildenstein colours and of course as we found Mmme Felix Berger. I know they were probably registered only in France at the time but surely the people behind the book could have met up with their French counterparts and made a book of far greater historical merit.
Does any one have the recently updated Cartier version? Was it any better?
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