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It would be interesting to know what the post race comments would be if the 2 horses had different trainers; it must be difficult keeping all of the owners happy, and having to pass comment so soon after races when he has not had the time to analyse the race properly. I sometimes wonder if he wishes that he didn’t train both horses, but his heart is obviously with Kauto Star which is understandable.
You have to disregard everything Paul Nichols says and make your own mind up. Some people seem to believe him when he says NC ran below form and Denman was short this year but not what he said about Kauto the year previous.
I prefer to use my own eyes and they say that Kauto Star didn’t jump or travel at all in last years Gold Cup and Denman was all out (and finished seriously knackered) in beating him by 7 lengths. Great horse, great race!
This year both horses jumped and travelled fluently, Kauto more so, finishing an easier 13 lenghts clear. Greater horse, greater race.I must say IMO Kauto did underperform in last years gold cup, however, it is blatantly obvious that denman hasnt been the same horse this year as last year. It is also worth noting that Kauto won a slow paced gold cup first time, was beaten in a well paced race by denman on slower ground next time, and has won on better ground this time.
IMO Kauto has great ability to travel and quicken on better ground, and on slower ground Denman is just a better horse. With Denman going so close in the gold cup after such a poor prep (where after the Aon few could even see him placing) to run that sort of race and finish second to a horse who has an awesome ability to quicken at the end of a good ground 3 mile chase. If it is slower next year again, and denman has a half reasonable prep my money wouldnt be on Kauto.
Thats not to say that I dont prefer Kauto as a horse, I just strongly think that he can be stretched at this distance on a slower surface by denman and denman is a better price.
I agree with you to the extent that Denman has a better chance of beating Kauto the softer the ground gets.
I must say IMO Kauto did underperform in last years gold cup, however, it is blatantly obvious that denman hasnt been the same horse this year as last year.
Firstly I wouldn’t agree with you that it is blatant. What i would say is blatant is that first time out he ran a temperamental race. Secondly IMO in the Gold cup he ran to a similar level of form as his Hennessy run and probably just below his winning Gold Cup form.
I guess what i’m intimating is that in my eyes his interupted and less than satisfactory run up had
little
affect on his performance.
If you think Denmans ‘interrupted’ preperation had "little" effect on his Gold Cup run, i think you are crackers to be honest.
I think you two are crackers. The horse has ran a great race PN said if he knew the horse was that forward he would have changed tactics on the horse.
I thought Denman was awesome in defeat. He’s beaten of a very good horse in ED and beaten NC further than he did last year. I’m not into times but Denman has probably run the same time as he did last year plus he’s beaten the same horse. Everything points to him having run very close to his form.
He might have been a few pounds short of his best but I doubt if he would have got any closer to Kauto Star, Sam actually was getting at him from about 5 out and he flew past NC in the same way he did 12 months ago only later in the race. The one big difference this year was Kauto Star was hack cantering all the way round and Denman simply couldn’t get to the front. Even Denman at his very best wouldn’t have got that Kauto Star anywhere near at it.
Got to love you guys come on here slag someone but no effort to try and justify what can only be described as pure ignorance. And they say I’m the bad guy?
I thought Denman was awesome in defeat. He’s beaten of a very good horse in ED and beaten NC further than he did last year. I’m not into times but Denman has probably run the same time as he did last year plus he’s beaten the same horse. :
Hey Bad Guy you"re not far off the mark there! i reckon Denman would
have beaten himself by 1/2l in his victory year clocking virtually 6m47secs
for both races! Trouble is he was never 100% right for this years race,
if he is bang on for next year then he will have improved and Kauto will be
put to the sword!Monksfield – i didn’t make any reference to next years race.
Mark – that can only be your interpretation surely? Or are you saying Denman ran to a similar mark as he did last year?
What is this similar mark rubbish mate. I don’t mean to harp on at you but this ratings crap is just a bunch of figures that rareley work inside a deperate judges head
IMO.
Did you watch the two races. Last year it was as plain as the nose on your face that Kauto Star was not himself.
Whe myself and others said the form was wrong as NC had finished upside KS we got hit with NC was an improving horse.
This year Kauto turned up at his very best was never out a common canter until Ruby said go and put so much air between himslf and the very much imroved (my ass) NC
Kauto Absolutely turned the form on it’s head. We all know the Denman story but he has run a blinder all the way to the line and beat NC a similar distance to last year. So in reality of you want to throw figures about it must be said through that line Denman improved on last year.
Denman is one paced at the end of his races. Any time he and KS meet and both are in top form. Ruby will just take the piss and pass him at will IMO.
Fist,
If PC thinks Denman’s form last year is better than Kauto Star’s this year (as I believe the Racing Post ratings do) then he is talking of "marks".You and I may disagree with him (and the RP) but his opinion is hardly rubbish, just his opinion. If you say Kauto Star is better than Denman then you yourself work to "marks". Are you a "desperate judge".
Nicholls has said since the race. NC was unsuited by the conditions, so he must have run below form; therefore Denman must have run below form.
If you believe Denman and Neptunes ran to form then do you believe Exotic Dancer, My Will and Roll Along improved? I think it is best judging the race by Exotic Dancer and how much further Kauto Star beat him.
Mark
You really are a big hit for yourself Ginge. Who appointed you world cop? Always the smarty pants telling people what they should say and shouldn’t say
Show me where I said "PC you are talking rubbish"
I said the ratings are rubbish. Not that he was talking rubbish but thanks to you he now thinks I was.
You interfering old sweetie-wife
Fist,
Calm down mate, don’t make a mountain out of a mole hill.
PC was "talking" about "Denman’s similar mark", then you ask "What is this similar mark rubbish? Therefore, I took it as you saying PC was talking rubbish. You then say "this ratings crap is just a bunch of figures, that rarely work inside a desperate judges head". This COULD be taken as saying PC is a desperate judge.
And have the temerity to ask him "did you watch the two races"?
It may be that you did not mean it as offensive Fist, if you say you did not mean anything by it then I believe you. But that is not how it read to me. Please, just give a little more thought in to how your words will be taken by others, that is all I ask Fist.
Mark
Value Is EverythingGINGE, dont pussyfoot round fisty, theres more chance of allpress11 becoming President of the USA!
I can’t see it GW but I backed Denman who is now half the odds he was with some books to do so.
To be honest I never bought into the Denman is finished crap and if we get bad conditions next year he would have every chance. If they were similar to this year and Kauto is turned out in the same condition he’ll win IMO.
I took the 8’s on Denman which was huge and backed Kauto but only to cover the bet. I think the big horse must have a chance of winning but I am far from confident
I’m now sitting back to see what developes and hopefully a market opportunity will arise where I can get to a situation where it doesn’t matter which wins I’ll come out smelling of roses
Just remember Fist, i will be starting a thread on the Cheltenham 2010 Gold cup, with the intention of finding a young pretender to the Big boys
throne, at the moment Calgary Bay is top of my list! plenty time yet mind!I’ve come to the conclusion that GW is crazy
Just joking my finger slipped. I’ve come to the conclusion Calgary Bay is a bit of a hit and miss horse.Irrespective of distance I thought he ran a shockingly poor race in the Arkle. There was just nothing there for AP to play with.
He’ll win races now and again and he’ll even fool you into thinking he is one but I can’t see him ever being a Gold Cup winner.
I’ve seen many horses just like him over the years but they all end up breaking your heart.
AP loves the horse but love is very seldom forever. I think the big horse will end up running round Wincanton and winning some decent chases and that will be about the strength of it.
Now Cooldine is a horse. I never rated him at all but to be fair hadn’t seen alot of him. He will be going places next season.
Another horse I think could improve a helluva lot is Barber Shop. Nicky gave him a very easy time of it this year and you can bet he wouldn’t be too hard on him on his build up to the Gold Cup as he firmly believed he couldn’t possibly win this year. The press were the ones who said he could win the Gold Cup, Nicky made it clear he said no such thing.
He’s a great trainer Nicky and it would be no suprise to see Barber Shop, with another year on his back, becoming a major player next year and taking over from the likes of Exotic Dancer and chasing the big two home
Just my opinion, but I think it would be wrong to judge today’s form on My Will.
The horse was effectively ridden for a place, never had to compete with the principals at any stage of the race, and had a totally easy time of doing what he did.
Consequently, having effectively run in his own race, I believe he is flattered by his proximity to some much better horses. Whatever one’s views, form just isn’t that linear.My Will was in front of Exotic Dancer for two thirds of the race. Did not have the speed to go with the "principles". Under pressure before Roll Along, Alberta’s Run and Barber Shop. A few lengths behind them coming down the hill, before staying on past them in the final quarter mile. Don’t think it was due to being "ridden for a place".
Ideal National trial.
Reminds me of my place bet on Valley Henry in the Gold Cup-which Best Mate won.
He was the only one who could go with Best Mate & tried to match him, stride for stride & ended up legless.
Trainer & jockey both said if they had let BM go on -Valley Henry would have finished an easy second.I’ve come to the conclusion that GW is crazy
Just joking my finger slipped. I’ve come to the conclusion Calgary Bay is a bit of a hit and miss horse.Irrespective of distance I thought he ran a shockingly poor race in the Arkle. There was just nothing there for AP to play with.
He’ll win races now and again and he’ll even fool you into thinking he is one but I can’t see him ever being a Gold Cup winner.
I’ve seen many horses just like him over the years but they all end up breaking your heart.
AP loves the horse but love is very seldom forever. I think the big horse will end up running round Wincanton and winning some decent chases and that will be about the strength of it.
Now Cooldine is a horse. I never rated him at all but to be fair hadn’t seen alot of him. He will be going places next season.
Another horse I think could improve a helluva lot is Barber Shop. Nicky gave him a very easy time of it this year and you can bet he wouldn’t be too hard on him on his build up to the Gold Cup as he firmly believed he couldn’t possibly win this year. The press were the ones who said he could win the Gold Cup, Nicky made it clear he said no such thing.
He’s a great trainer Nicky and it would be no suprise to see Barber Shop, with another year on his back, becoming a major player next year and taking over from the likes of Exotic Dancer and chasing the big two home
Fist, Barber Shop is a good call, but i still think Imperial Commander would beat him even over 31/4m, forget his King george run!
What’s the ground like in this imaginary re-run you’re all having ?
Cheltenham will be a bog, there’ll be heavy rain throughout the race aswell as a strong headwind!
Denman will win obviously & the tank will then go to Aintree and win the National
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