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Cheating that is within the rules of racing

Home Forums Horse Racing Cheating that is within the rules of racing

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  • #1552
    madman marz
    Member
    • Total Posts 707

    The removing and reinstating of headgear, when the trainer knows his/her horse runs like a hairy goat without the headgear. So run the horse 5 or 6 times without it get the horse back down to a winning mark, reinstate headgear back it off the board, horse bolts in.<br>Trainers running sprinters over middle distances or vice versa trainers running middle distance horses over sprint distances.<br>To a lesser extent running horses on the wrong ground (sometimes the weather is unpredictable so sometimes trainers are forced to run them on it).<br>Anyone think of any other ways of cheating that lie entirely within the rules???.

    #56012
    absolution
    Member
    • Total Posts 214

    I think many trainers use headgear as trying something new on a problem horse and often they do not have a clue how the horse will react – sometimes it will do the trick and horse will bolt up other times horse goes off like a scalded cat and runs itself out – as for trying horses at various trips i cant really call it cheating and even if it is surely if you study the horses form carefully you can use it to your advantage so silly to moan about it – its all part of the game ;)

    #56015
    madman marz
    Member
    • Total Posts 707

    I wasn’t moaning absolution just making an observation.<br>As I buy the Racing Post everyday I am privy to more information than say someone who relies on the Daily Mirror for picking his horses.<br>So if the Racing Post form says horse won last time with the application of Blinkers but Headgear left off today I would avoid the horse like the plague.<br>What I am basically saying absolution if the horse runs well with Blinkers why would the trainer leave them off "To stop it of course".<br>A certain Mark Prescott runs a lot of his middle bred horses over sprint distances to get them on a winning mark ( a bit of pun there), step them up remarkably in trip and as we have seen for years a lot of his horses build up sequences.

    (Edited by madman marz at 7:56 pm on May 1, 2007)

    #56016
    Irish Stamp
    Member
    • Total Posts 3185

    Using certain jobbers who blatantly don’t try but will for legal reasons remain nameless.

    #56018
    madman marz
    Member
    • Total Posts 707

    Quote: from Irish Stamp on 8:11 pm on May 1, 2007[br]Using certain jobbers who blatantly don’t try but will for legal reasons remain nameless.

    But thats not within the rules Stamp.

    #56022
    Wallace
    Participant
    • Total Posts 862

    As said on an earlier thread, giving the horse a flat out gallop over a couple of miles in the morning before racing in the afternoon is a useful method.  The jockey can be told to try and the horse can’t win.

    #56024
    madman marz
    Member
    • Total Posts 707

    Quote: from Wallace on 8:59 pm on May 1, 2007[br]As said on an earlier thread, giving the horse a flat out gallop over a couple of miles in the morning before racing in the afternoon is a useful method.  The jockey can be told to try and the horse can’t win.

    Interesting Wallace, never thought of that, certainly no law against it.

    #56026
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17722

    It’s within the rules to run a horse when it’s unfit, over the wrong trip, on the wrong ground, with unsuitable equipment, to train them for a later race on the same course, to hold it up when it’s a front runner, etc.,etc., etc..<br>You are even allowed to tell anyone you wish about it, even report it in the media; but tell any of the above for money and you face the full wrath of those whose public face is to keep the sport honest?.<br>It would be insane, if it weren’t true.:biggrin:

    (Edited by reet hard at 9:34 pm on May 1, 2007)

    #56028
    Lingfield
    Member
    • Total Posts 919

    Quote: from madman marz on 7:54 pm on May 1, 2007[br]I wasn’t moaning absolution just making an observation.<br>As I buy the Racing Post everyday I am privy to more information than say someone who relies on the Daily Mirror for picking his horses.<br>So if the Racing Post form says horse won last time with the application of Blinkers but Headgear left off today I would avoid the horse like the plague.<br>What I am basically saying absolution if the horse runs well with Blinkers why would the trainer leave them off "To stop it of course".<br>A certain Mark Prescott runs a lot of his middle bred horses over sprint distances to get them on a winning mark ( a bit of pun there), step them up remarkably in trip and as we have seen for years a lot of his horses build up sequences.

    (Edited by madman marz at 7:56 pm on May 1, 2007)<br>

    <br>Prescott will presumably find things much tougher this year with the new penalty system catching up with his potential sequence runners quicker

    #56030
    madman marz
    Member
    • Total Posts 707

    Quote: from Lingfield on 10:46 pm on May 1, 2007[br]

    Quote: from madman marz on 7:54 pm on May 1, 2007[br]I wasn’t moaning absolution just making an observation.<br>As I buy the Racing Post everyday I am privy to more information than say someone who relies on the Daily Mirror for picking his horses.<br>So if the Racing Post form says horse won last time with the application of Blinkers but Headgear left off today I would avoid the horse like the plague.<br>What I am basically saying absolution if the horse runs well with Blinkers why would the trainer leave them off "To stop it of course".<br>A certain Mark Prescott runs a lot of his middle bred horses over sprint distances to get them on a winning mark ( a bit of pun there), step them up remarkably in trip and as we have seen for years a lot of his horses build up sequences.

    (Edited by madman marz at 7:56 pm on May 1, 2007)<br>

    <br>Prescott will presumably find things much tougher this year with the new penalty system catching up with his potential sequence runners quicker

    I was aware of the penalty system lingfield, but isnt Prescott a prime example of how easy it is to cheat, but at the same time staying within the rules, and as Reet Hard pointed out getting a pat on the back from the media when he was blatantly cheating.

    #56031
    Alderbrook
    Member
    • Total Posts 349

    Finding the worst ground can be handy I imagine…

    #56034
    insomniac
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1453

    If it’s within the rules then it can’t be cheating can it?<br>Perhaps it’s the rules that are wrong – but how can you frame a rule that says a particular horse can’t run over a certain trip, or on particular ground etc.? <br>If  best trip and ground aren’t already known then it’s up to the punter to assess the pedigree/action of any beast they wish to consider for a race. The pedigree is, after all, available for all to see; it’s no secret – either to the public or the handicapper. <br>First time blinkers is of course guesswork to the public (and perhaps to many connections). But, if a beast runs well in them, then doesn’t run in them for a while and its’ handicap mark drops, then reappears back wearing blinkers, then that too is there for form students to see and act upon.<br>Trainers stats are available too. Once a trainer has been at it a few seasons, you can, if you put the hours in, get a grip on their   modus operandi. It’s a bit like detective work – sometimes the clues are there all along.<br>Whilst there are undoubtedly trainers (and jockeys) who are "cheats" in the fullest sense of the word,  I don’t consider too much action is necessary (if any) to stop connections running horses over the wrong trip; taking off blinkers etc.<br>Some perfectly honest, (let’s assume there is such a thing) trainers start off staying beasts over inadequate trips as a means of educating them and gradually bringing on the animal; nothing wrong in that surely? <br>How many runners in this years Derby will be 100% fully wound up in their prep races? None I would guess if the trainer has specifically targeted the race. Are they all cheats?<br>I get your point marz, but  let’s not eliminate the need for a little bit of detective work on pedigree, trainer style, and past form. Some might even find it enjoyable. Me ? I don’t bet on horses nowadays, it’s too crooked.

    #56036
    madman marz
    Member
    • Total Posts 707

    As I said before its just an observation Insomniac.<br>Granted Trainers have to experiment with their horses to find the best trip or if it needs headgear etc, but when a horses best trip is already known and the horse is regulary running over the wrong distance to me that is cheating, and if a trainer knows that his horse is a much better performer with headgear but regulary runs him without it, to me thats cheating. But its cheating which the authoritys can do F all about. So why not as far as these trainers are concerned when they can get away with it, and shake a few pound off the horses back. <br>I have been following racing and backing horses for years now and I have cottoned on to all these forms of cheating so I just dont back them. But less informed punters are been cheated every day.

    #56038
    Nor1
    Member
    • Total Posts 384

    "But it’s cheating the authorities can do F all about"<br>mm, they could if they wanted to.<br>The design and application of the handicap system is flawed, and because of this, punters, who do not have the time or experience to analyse the form of trainers/owners/jockeys, are fleeced every day.<br>It should be quite simple, with today’s technology, not to drop pounds of a horse who is a master at winning 6f races, but spends half of his life running over 8. Likewise can be said about headgear, ground, a/w, and track preferences.

    #56039
    Aragorn
    Member
    • Total Posts 2208

    Madman,

    If your a businessman (Which these people are don’t forget, they’re not here to line your pockets) and you have a 2yo with an excellent middle distance pedigree, but you know the horse is unlikely to win at two over say 7f. This is because you know that it is no world beater and won’t be winning classics but he should pick up the odd race or two. The trainer gives you two options:

    1) Run the horse late season when the 2yo races are over longer distances. Hope to win your maiden (Over 7f- 1m) and then obtain a handicap mark reflective of the maiden. You are more than likely to pick up a highish handicap mark given your horse is reasonably talented and would be expected to progress based on pedigree etc etc. You then struggle in your three year old season to win races because your handicap mark is too high and thus make little money. Greater Risk with this route of not making money.

    2) You run your horse over shorter distances giving it a lower handicap mark, which with the right placement the following season over middle distances you take advantage of by winning several handicaps and a nice few quid in between.

    As insomniac points out, nearly all the information you need will be available to ascertain the way in which the horse has been trained with some close study. The only thing you don;t really know is how the horse is going at home.. although a look at the gallop reports may help.

    If you are a shrewd enough form student you may pick this up and may land yourself a nice touch in the interim, particularly if you know that the trainer is often known to train in this manner. If they are not then your likely to land even more of a touch..

    Whilst it’s slightly annoying and it may not always be apparent to the general public, neither is everything in investment banking (There are obviously insider trading restrictions there, but the market pays no heed to that). Its impossible to remove this element of brinkmanship from the game if we want british racing to remain the interesting and quaint variation of the sport that it is.. Otherwise we would have to almost sanitise racing like in America and do away with handicaps. You would only end up with other ways of playing the system, its inevitable. The human mind is to inquisitive for it not too happen..

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