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Equi
I suppose that depends on one’s perception of ‘top class’?
RVW is the probably (certainly, imo) the best miler in these islands at the moment, though clearly not the best 10f horse.
It’s not just a question of semantics either, but a very real difference in interpreting and rating his form, and the form of those around him (Which, incidentally, is why I believe STS to be slightly overrated for the Eclipse, and well overrated for the Irish Champion).My tuppence worth
I’d say getting so near to a ‘top class’ performer such as STS over 10f would suggest RVW is not
only
a top class miler.
RVW’s similarities with New Approach go beyond their sires. We’re talking about a horse that’s contested 5 group 1’s from 8-12f, got every yard at Epsom and was staying on behind STS, won two others over a strongly run stiff mile and ran STS to half a length over 10f. It wouldn’t be beyond the realms of fantasy to suggest he’s a ‘top class’ 10f performer, surely?
He goes for the BC Classic…over ten!
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Just my opinion OTS, but he had STS on toast until the fuel ran out, and it would have been a very different result over a little shorter.
The Santa Anita 10f isn’t nearly the same test as the Eclipse, a fact no doubt borne in mind when STS’s connections decided to swerve the rematch.Andyod
I thinks it’s quite clear, both from the way RVW was ridden in the Guineas, and the way the slow pace was engineered in the Derby, that the Guineas wasn’t top of his priorities at that stage. Either that, or they’ve learned to ride him very differently over 1m since.
^^not a great comparison considering the difference in going.
Perhaps you would prefer this:-
Zarkava’s Vermeille: 2.26.00 always allowing for the 6 lengths lost at the start
Some people might as well burn their form books. They don’t seem to know how to read them
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The Eclipse I rate as a 137 performance. Based more around the defeat of Paco Boy by Rip Van Winkle than anything else.Ginger
I think the above says it all!
Judging a middle distance horse by his defeat of a miler, who in turn beat a 7f specialist, shows that your own understanding of the form book wouldn’t really qualify you to pontificate to others?
Reet,
I WAS of the same opinion as you, immediately, and some time afterwards. It was not until the also rans kept on franking the form; I was forced to change my mind. Indeed I even criticised Moore for his ride on Conduit. When working out the performance ratings of all concerned; I found (looking at all the other runners) the only way it made sense is to give Conduit 129. Just 1 lb below his best. I also had another look at the race.In a truly run 1m2f (like this was) you’d expect a stayer like Conduit to be outpaced 2 or 3 furlongs out before making up ground at the finish. Yet Sea The Stars and Rip Van Winkle were going away again at the finish. Conduit was far nearer 1 1/2 furlongs from home. I rated the race on 1.5 lbs per length.
Sea The Stars 137, Rip Van Winkle 136, Conduit 129, Cima De Triomphe 121, Steele Tango 115, Twice Over 114,
How would you rate the Eclipse Reet?
Rip Van Winkle (I believe)needs a fast run race to have pace enough for a mile. Given that test is just as good at 1m as 1m2f.
As others have said, Paco Boy won the Queen Anne easily enough to suggest he is equally effective at a mile. At least given a relative test of speed. A firm surface (Queen Anne) or sharp course on good (Sussex) suits him. I’d agree on a soft surface or stiff track I’d be against him at 8 furlongs (though acts well under such conditions at 7f).
Value Is EverythingThe Santa Anita 10f isn’t nearly the same test as the Eclipse, a fact no doubt borne in mind when STS’s connections decided to swerve the rematch.
Aye, Steady! Are you suggesting that STS (guineas winner)would at any stage be out paced over 10f of Santa Anita?
Mick Kinane said the horse was losing his coat – I believe him. The way he tanked in the Arc also suggests he was maybe feeling the seasons exertions. I’ve no reason to believe that STS wasn’t the best miler on show this year on evidence – none at all.
Sea The Stars 137, Rip Van Winkle 136, Conduit 129, Cima De Triomphe 121, Steele Tango 115, Twice Over 114,
I think you have to give STS at least 3lbs more than Rip for the idling at the end.
STS 138+ RVW 135 Conduit 128 etc. This gives every justification for giving Sea the Stars the 140 rating he richly deserves.
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Some incredible stuff on here.
Gingertipster wrote;
In a truly run 1m2f (like this was) you’d expect a stayer like Conduit to be outpaced 2 or 3 furlongs out before making up ground at the finish.Which is exactly how he ran in the Arc, yet you’re suggesting he ran within 1lb of that over 2f less at Sandown?
Onthessteal wrote
Are you suggesting that STS (guineas winner)would at any stage be out paced over 10f of Santa Anita?Are you suggesting that didn’t happen (around 1f out) at the considerably stiffer Sandown?
Onthesteal wrote:
I’ve no reason to believe that STS wasn’t the best miler on show this year on evidence – none at all.Then you’ll ignore that his best performance over this distance (RPR 124) was rated well short of the 128 and 131 recorded by RVW over the same trip later in the year?
Euro,
You are right, I would give Sea The Stars an extra couple of pounds for idling. The ratings I gave were for performance only, not allowing for how he won. The rating was 137 ½ anyway to be exact. The Irish Champion I rate a little better anyway.
The over all rating I give to Sea The Stars is 140.
Reet,
That only strengthens my case. Conduit ran very similar races in Eclipse and Arc. Simply not good enough in either.Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
Reet,
That only strengthens my case. Conduit ran very similar races in Eclipse and Arc. Simply not good enough in either.I wonder what it would take to weaken your case?
If a horse gets outpaced and then finishes well in a strongly run 12f race, (particularly a former Leger winner), then it’s hardly a quantum leap to suggest that he wouldn’t be as good over 2f shorter. Rather than exhorting others to burn their form books, I’d suggest you study your own more closely, if you think otherwise.Then you’ll ignore that his best performance over this distance (RPR 124) was rated well short of the 128 and 131 recorded by RVW over the same trip later in the year?
"…later in the year"
being all important!
STS recorded a rating of 124 on his
reappearance
. Do you not think he’d have bettered that had he been campaigned over a mile all season, Reet? Could we not afford STS improvement in the way every STS knocker seems to for RVW over a mile?
And no, STS wasn’t outpaced at any point at the considerably stiffer Sandown! I think you’re seeing what you want to and ignoring things at your convenience
..IMO Are we talking about the same horse/race?!
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Zarkava’s arc 2m 28.80s
See the Stars arc 2m 26.30sYou should add Zarkava was racing on a much slower surface.
I really don’t understand why anyone (apart from Timeform) can think that Zarkava wasn’t at least Sea the Stars equal.
She won the Arc hands and heels in a better time if you take the ground into consideration. She covered the last 300 yds in the same time as Sea the Stars who was flat out and being whipped while he jockey was rowing away like he had all day to get there.
Sea the Stars is a terrific horse and many times I have read on here he could only beat what was put in front of him………..well I think that could be said about Zarkava who to me was if not a better horse was a much more exciting animal to watch…If Sea the Stars had the speed she had in a finish he would be up there with Sea Bird II himself but he’s not.
As ar as I’m concerned luck was on his side as he didn’t have a Zarkava to beat and vice versa.
His win in the Eclipse was awesome but as Reet pointed out 2f from home Rip Van Winkle was running all over him.
He really din’t meet one horse I could put my hand to my heart and say he’s a brilliant 1m2f horse. So nothing could touch him at that trip. If Rip Van Winkle wins in the U.S. you could argue with that but these American tracks aren’t Sandown and like Kempton they are easy on stamina.
However he passed every test and won more races than Zarkava so Timeform put him ahead but had they met in the Arc?………I think my cash would have been on the filly.
When you get two horses who travel as well as Sea the Stars and Zarkava did, it comes down to one thing:- which has the most toe?
Unless I am totally blind Zarkava would have went past him like like a rocket as she did everything else…..unless of course anyone thinks Sea the Stars won easier than she did.
Just my opinion OTS, but he had STS on toast until the fuel ran out, and it would have been a very different result over a little shorter.
The Santa Anita 10f isn’t nearly the same test as the Eclipse, a fact no doubt borne in mind when STS’s connections decided to swerve the rematch.I admire people who try to take a contrary view of things but this simply defies logic. Its fairly evident from both before and subsequent events that RVW easily stays 10 furlong. Added to that if STS has lost that race, Kinane would have been heavily criticised for being in front so far out and the second horse got a fantastic ride. But whether STS, Zarkava, New Approch or whoever is best ability wise, there’s no contest when it comes to temperament.
SHL
Well you could also say, Zarkava may have found nothing under the whip, or what would happen if she did challenge there is always the possibilty of Sea The Stars pulling out more, remember Sea The Stars puts down his challenge a lot earlier (bar the Inernational) than Zarkava did, there is always the possibilty Sea The Stars would have found more when challenged, look at the Eclipse which is one of the fastest ever races at Sandown over 1m2f if we are talking times , Rip Van Winkle would have beat any other horse this season with that challenge he gave Sea The Stars with, he pulled away from Conduit like he wasn’t even there, yet Sea The Stars who looked a sitting duck pulled out even more.
And the ground last year wasnt that much softer at all by the way remember nearly all the rain missed Longchamp that day and the jockeys said it was riding good, it was softer than this years no doubt but hardly that much and to me Sea The Stars had the race won just after the 2f marker and pretty much eased down the last furlong.
Sadly there is no answer as they will never race and had two completly ways of riding.
Just my opinion OTS, but he had STS on toast until the fuel ran out, and it would have been a very different result over a little shorter.
The Santa Anita 10f isn’t nearly the same test as the Eclipse, afact no doubt borne in mind when STS’s connections decided to swerve the rematch
.
I think the only person relieved Sea The Stars isn’t going to Santa Anita is Aiden O’Brien!
‘Swerve’ the rematch? Are you serious?
After Sea The Stars destroyed Rip Van Winkle at Newmarket, they had their rematch at Epsom…then at Sandown…and the result was the same on each occasion.
Some people must have been watching a different Eclipse. Are was talking about the one at Sandown on July 4th?
The race I witnessed had two pacemakers. One to benefit Conduit and one to benefit Rip Van Winkle. Both came to win their races at the two marker when STS took over. They were 1/2 L and 2 L down, respectively, at the furlong pole before Sea The Stars, cool as you like, increased that advantage to 1 L and 5 1/2 L at the finish in a good time.
A truly run race and Sea The Stars did just enough to win like he always did. They came to challenge, he pulled out more. End of story. No excuses.
As for Zarkava vs Sea The Stars.
Again, people are basing their opinion on the proximity of Youmzain – a good yardstick, but hard to tell if he ran above last years effort, or not. Hell, it’s hard to compare his effort from one race to the next.
Difficult to judge how much Sea The Stars had left to give, given his laid back nature and his tendancy to only ever do just enough (Irish Champion, aside).
Both had a far from smooth journey. Zarkava fell out of the stalls, whilst STS was very fresh and got hit more times than Joe Bugner.
STS was 7 L down four furlongs from home. 2 L down at the three furlong pole. A head in front two out. 3 L up at the furlong marker. Eased down to win cosily by two.
The ease with which he made up that ground was incredible. Given a few love taps to wake him up and then the race was over. Boom – Just like that (as Tommy Cooper would say). Thank-you and Au revoir.
Zarkava was about 3 L down half a mile from home, but didn’t get her head in front until 1 1/2 L furlongs from the finish.
Granted, the acceleration at that point was impressive, but Sea The Stars would’ve had the race at his mercy by then and could have found more if required.
Despite her brilliance, one can argue that both Ouija Board and Bosra Sham have left an indelible mark on people greater than that of Zarkava.
..IMO 
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