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Celtic & Rangers: Would joining EPL would be good for SP

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  • #11557
    insomniac
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    • Total Posts 1453

    Was talking with a Rangers fan this morning. He was very much in favour of Rangers and Celtic joining the English Premiership (as am I). They’re too big for the SPL – and plenty big enough for the English Premiership. By leaving the SPL, he argued, other SPL clubs would get the opportunity to join the Champions’ League gravy-train, and maybe that would make for a stronger SPL.
    "Take off the top branches (Celtic & Rangers), so that the lower branches get a chance to grow", was how he put it, or something like that.
    Anyone agree? Good for the SPL or not?

    #231106
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    It might be good for the SPL, but I can almost guarantee that it won’t be good for either Celtic or Rangers.

    Whilst I admire the type of football that the Scots play, even the very best clubs in the land aren’t up to the requisite standard to be considered successful in the Premier League – I would be surprised if the chariman of either club would be satisfied with ‘mid-table mediocrity’ given the additional logisitical issues involved with a switch.

    Liverpool, as an example, were unbeaten during pre-season, but were not in the least bit impressive in maintaining that record. Then we went to Ibrox and put for past Rangers without a second thought – with Keane, Pennant, Ngog, Nemeth, Plessis, Darby and Spearing in the team at various stages, that doesn’t speak well of the home side.

    Waste of time for me.

    #231121
    Himself
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    • Total Posts 3777

    Firstly, I don’t think it will ever happen.

    If it did, it would prove the death knell of the SPL. Without Celtic and Rangers’ inclusion, tv companies would lose interest straightaway.

    As for readily dismissing the impact both Old Firm clubs would make, I would humbly suggest that you haven’t quite thought this one through, Equitrack.

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    #231123
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    I humbly suggest I have, Himself.

    Neither Rangers nor Celtic are good enough to prove consistently better than Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal, which immediately puts them in the same bracket as Everton, Aston Villa, Fulham and Spurs. I have no doubt whatsoever that any of those four clubs could give Scotland’s best a run for their money, especially at home, so I’m left wondering exactly what their inclusion would bring to the Premiership.

    Very little would be my guess.

    #231137
    Himself
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    • Total Posts 3777

    I humbly suggest I have, Himself.

    Neither Rangers nor Celtic are good enough to prove consistently better than Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal, which immediately puts them in the same bracket as Everton, Aston Villa, Fulham and Spurs. I have no doubt whatsoever that any of those four clubs could give Scotland’s best a run for their money, especially at home, so I’m left wondering exactly what their inclusion would bring to the Premiership.

    Very little would be my guess.

    I doubt that you have, Equitrack.

    On the other hand, Arsene Wenger and Sir Alex Ferguson have thought it through.

    Both of those august gentleman are on record as saying that both Old Firm clubs, after a settling in period, would become major players in the Premiership.

    They, of course, realise that with the added revenue that sky /setanta would bring, along with their global appeal and other income – added to the fact that top players would be only too willing to sign for them, that it would only be a matter of time before they’d be challenging for honours in England.

    The Celtic fan base alone, is probably only second to that of Manchester United. As Martin O’Neill said a few days ago; Celtic would easily get 80,000 for home matches were they to join the Premiership. Of course, they’d have to build that extention first. :wink:

    Yes, I agree the present Old Firm squads are poor by comparison – both in relation to Premiership squads and Old Firm squads of the past.

    But few, if any, of those current players would play in part in such a scenario. Class players would be sought – and bought – and with it vast improvement in quality and standards.

    You cited Liverpool playing Rangers in a friendly. Proved nothing at all.
    Celtic played a multi-million pound assembled Liverpool side a few seasons ago in the Uefa Cup. The first leg, at Celtic Park, ended in a 1-1 draw. A formality, shouted the English press, as they boasted what Liverpool would do to Martin O’Nell’s side in the return leg.

    Well, as we know, Celtic did to Liverpool what they did Blackburn in a previous round – defeated them 2-0 on their own patch.

    If you really think that a Celtic or Rangers side, packed with quality players, could not more than hold their own in the English Premiership, then you really haven’t thought it through at all.

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    #231145
    Pompete
    Member
    • Total Posts 2391

    The one issue that always gets overlooked in this discussion is that should Celtic and Rangers join the EPL which if invited to do so they are entitled to do, they would not however be eligible to play in any European competition. The Uefa rules covering this point are quite clear.

    No team based in a geographical association (The SFA) may represent a different geographical association (The FA) in European Competition.

    I’m not sure how Celtic and Rangers supporters feel about that but would be interested to know.

    To answer the original question: would it better for the SPL – who cares :D

    #231174
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    And citing a Celtic victory from god knows how long ago is evidence of their potential in the Premiership, Himself?

    Give me a break.

    Just answer me one question – does the partnership of Kenny Miller (failed in the Premiership) and Nacho Novo stack up against Anelka/Drogba, Rooney/Ronaldo, Gerrard/Torres or Eduardo/Vela/Adebayor/Van Persie?

    Erm…no (I could go through other positions too, but it would be a waste of time).

    Neither side are good enough to break up the dominance of the established top four, and without the money available to the likes of Manchester City and Portsmouth they’re destined for a top-of-the-table finish at best. Celtic may be able to pull in crowds of 80,000 (though how likely those fans are to travel to Fratton Park etc is open to debate) but when did big crowds guarantee a big performance?

    Newcastle have been pulling in 50,000 for years – where are they now?

    I don’t think it will ever happen, but the simple fact is that only one thing will drive Rangers and Celtic to push for a switch – money. The success they have shared would be very much a thing of the past. Though who am I to argue with Alex Ferguson – he always speaks the truth, doesn’t he?

    #231196
    Himself
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    • Total Posts 3777

    And citing a Celtic victory from god knows how long ago is evidence of their potential in the Premiership, Himself?

    Give me a break.

    Just answer me one question – does the partnership of Kenny Miller (failed in the Premiership) and Nacho Novo stack up against Anelka/Drogba, Rooney/Ronaldo, Gerrard/Torres or Eduardo/Vela/Adebayor/Van Persie?

    Erm…no (I could go through other positions too, but it would be a waste of time).

    Neither side are good enough to break up the dominance of the established top four, and without the money available to the likes of Manchester City and Portsmouth they’re destined for a top-of-the-table finish at best. Celtic may be able to pull in crowds of 80,000 (though how likely those fans are to travel to Fratton Park etc is open to debate) but when did big crowds guarantee a big performance?

    Newcastle have been pulling in 50,000 for years – where are they now?

    I don’t think it will ever happen, but the simple fact is that only one thing will drive Rangers and Celtic to push for a switch – money. The success they have shared would be very much a thing of the past. Though who am I to argue with Alex Ferguson – he always speaks the truth, doesn’t he?

    I don’t think it will happen either – as I’ve already said.

    I did not cite Celtic’s victory against Liverpool, in a competitive match by the way, as opposed to a meaningless friendly, as a means to back up any evidence of their potential. :roll:

    Ferguson, who used to play for Rangers, is the most succesful British manager ever ( fact ! ) and he is simply giving an informed opinion. He knows, more than most, of the vast untapped potential both clubs have.

    Celtic and Rangers are much bigger football clubs than Newcastle United ( poor example).

    Take away the Sky money and I wonder how many English Premiership clubs ( outside the top four) could flourish or would be able to generate even a tenth of the wealth they have now. Not many, I would suggest.

    Put the shoe on the other foot though, and I wonder how well they’d cope if they had to operate under the heavy financial constraints that the old firm have to in Scotland.

    Everything is relative.

    No, the real reason they would not be welcomed into the Premiership is that turkeys do not vote for Christmas. The thought of those two arriving on their doorsteps would give most of them the heebeegeebees. Aint that the truth. :wink:

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    #231234
    douginho
    Member
    • Total Posts 1046

    Rangers and Celtic would make an impact in England. No doubt Rangers and Celtic, being on an even financial footing with the english premier league sides in terms of tv revenues, would totally gazump the stokes, hulls, blackburns etc. Whether they would make Europe is another matter. I could see them being like Everton/Villa…best of the rest outside top 4.

    I also think there fans might struggle to adjust to not winning every week. One of the reasons Rangers and Celtic have many fans is because they are successful (glory hunters). If that glory was gone…would they still attract the same fans?? Yes they’d still have a huge hardcore, but would the fans of the future support them?

    And its without question the remaining SPL sides would struggle without the Old Firm. But give it a couple years and teams like Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee Utd, Hibs would rise to the top, be playing in front of full houses and be winning leagues and cups…and those glory hunting old firm fans will suddenly become Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee Utd fans.

    I am sure this move will never happen though. Its either the old firm move or the entire scottish league moves and becomes part of a UK wide Football association. Neither will happen in my lifetime…if it aint happened already it never will. This had to be done in the early nineties when the premier league was formed.

    #231281
    Nathan Hughes
    Participant
    • Total Posts 25901

    It was in the press that Rafa Benitez wanted Liverpool reserves to join the football league like Real Madrid’s second side in Spain but they would of had to start from the very lowest tier or near to the lowest of English football so why would/should Rangers and Celtic automatically join the Premiership knocking two other teams down the pecking order?

    Equitrack you cant bring friendlies into the equation as Liverpool lost 5-0 to an ordinary German or Austrian team the year Pennant and Bellamy joined the club.

    Member since March 2008
    #231304
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    Some friendlies are played competitively, Nathan, some are not. The game between Rangers and Liverpool was fairly late in the closed-season (so teams will be back in full training and playing to win) and the former put out one of their better teams.

    As indications of class go, it was fairly accurate.

    #231341
    Goldikova
    Member
    • Total Posts 1537

    I don’t see it happening, and wouldn’t be keen on Celtic turning into a club who spend and pay crazy money on players. Maybe something will happen with a Euro league sometime down the line. I can’t see Platini allowing the Premier League to become stronger.

    #231346
    Himself
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    • Total Posts 3777

    I don’t see it happening, and wouldn’t be keen on Celtic turning into a club who spend and pay crazy money on players.

    I don’t think any club should pay crazy money for players, but Celtic should fork out for much better quality than they have at their disposal now.

    Naylor, Caldwell, McManus, Hartley, Samaras, JVoH, Robson and Willo Flood are simply not good enough and none would have got a game, let alone a regular game, under Martin O’Neill or any previous Celtic manager – well, Lou Macari apart ( Wayne Biggins and Carl Muggleton anyone ? )

    These guys are simply not good enough to wear the Celtic jersey and are symptomatic of the frugal approach which now exists at Celtic Park. Yes, the club have no debt, but the product they sell their fans is very much sub standard. Celtic fans love to be entertained and season ticket holders have been staying away in their droves because the football has been stale, unimaginative and uninspiring. Things have to change.

    Dermot Desmond is worth fortunes, and Celtic F.C are certainly not short of a bob or two, yet he and the parsimonious board would rather shop at Lidls as opposed to Sainsburys.

    In these modern times, the fact remains that to achieve a modicum of success on the football pitch, money has to be spent. If not, clubs in the top divisions of their country are doomed to fail.

    Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning

    #231348
    Goldikova
    Member
    • Total Posts 1537

    It’s just the way things are in the current climate. Things have changed since the days of O’Neil with regards to finance, as he was allowed to spend £5m on a few individual players and their wages.

    If Mowbray comes in, he might just work well with John Park to try and get value for what our budget allows.

    I don’t know much about the financial aspect of things, but i think we pobably get less tv revenue domestically than some Championship clubs.

    #231391
    douginho
    Member
    • Total Posts 1046

    These guys are simply not good enough to wear the Celtic jersey [/color:7seaakap]and are symptomatic of the frugal approach which now exists at Celtic Park. Yes, the club have no debt, but the product they sell their fans is very much sub standard. Celtic fans love to be entertained and season ticket holders have been staying away in their droves because the football has been stale, unimaginative and uninspiring. Things have to change[/color:7seaakap].

    Some fans are so fickle it is scary. 3 leagues in 4 years, a few national cup comps, last 16 of europe on two occassions and all you hear is how the players are not good enough to wear the jersey.

    Yes Celtic have been struggling this past couple years but so has every team in scotland. But true fans follow there side through thick and thin. Staying away because you are winning 2-1 instead of 7-0 against the SPL "cannon fodder" proves how sad things have become for old firm fans.

    I would give my right arm to have enjoyed that sort of success as a fan. The right to gloat, the right to feel proud. And yet all you hear is how Dermot Desmond and David Murray aren’t putting enough of their own money into it. Defies comprehension.

    #231417
    Himself
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3777

    No Doughino, it is not about fickleness. I say it’s more about discernment and what standards you’re willing to accept ( or not, as the case may be ) from Celtic players.

    I have been following Celtic since the early 60s, before Jock Stein arrived, and have seen all the good days and all the bad.

    Yes, the current crop of Celtic players have won three leagues in a row, but the competition, especially from Rangers, has been dire to say the least – and the quality of football has been pitiful at times. Players with poor first touches unable to string three passes together. Wee Jinky and Bobby Murdoch would be turning in their grave if they could witness some of the dross we’ve had to sit through.

    Hopefully the new man can elevate things to a better technical level. He might have a job on his hand, as McGeady apart, it’s nigh impossible to turn sows’ ears into gold purses.

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    #231442
    insomniac
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    • Total Posts 1453

    Of course the prospect of the two Glasgow clubs joining the EPL is predicated by their being allowed to enter the Champion League should they qualify in the English league.

    Reason why it would be good for Celtic & Rangers: Easier for them to sign top players. The best players want to play at the highest level, that’s not the SPL. If you’re a top player who wants to be recognised as such, performances against the best in the EPL will count. Celtic & Rangers may well be able to afford the daft transfer fees and salaries that the English clubs do, but top players don’t want to strut their stuff at small scottish clubs in fron of comparatively small crowds.

    Reason why it would be good for the rest of the SPL without Celtic & Rangers.
    Aberdeen, Hearts, St Johnstone, the Dundee clubs, Hibs etc. would have a better than ever chance to win the title and dip their snouts in the Champions League. Thus the SPL would find a new life; fans would surely turn up in larger numbers as, hey, they might now actually win something. It would be re-invigorated.

    Reasons why it won’t happen: The European Footballing bodies don’t want the EPL being even more successful and besides, they have the same sort of mindset as the Jockey Club types who once opposed the introduction of starting-stalls, lady jockeys etc.

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