Brexit – no meaningful vote

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This topic contains 110 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by befair befair 5 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #1388879
    Gingertipster
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    Not at all Gingertipster – from Mr Cameron: “I don’t regret calling a referendum,” he said. “I made a promise in the election to call a referendum and I called the referendum.”

    He made a promise and kept to it: unusual for a politician.

    Very true, Matron.
    Once Cameron promised to hold a referendum he did the right thing in calling the referendum.

    I think it is questionable whether he should have promised it in the first place. “Questionable” as in… I can see both sides on whether he should or should not have promised/called one – as my previous post indicates.

    value is everything
    #1388885
    Gingertipster
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    Nobody was going to get what they want, Homer.

    Hard Brexiteers ideas might have worked, but there’s a far bigger risk of economic breakdown. That does not mean there would be economic breakdown, just it’ll be far more likely with a WTO Brexit.

    Labour has a Brexit policy of six tests that is impossible for anyone to achieve in negotiations, ignoring the fact that it goes totally against EU rules – unworkable and sheer fantasy.

    Only Brexit that might have a chance of getting through a “meaningful vote” is the so called Norway Plus which is really EU Minus and does not deliver on the Referendum result. Ignoring the fact it keeps free movement, stops the UK from signing its own deals with other countries and keeps us paying in to the EU without any say in the rules. Going totally against what the issues were in the Referendum. Problem is Parliament has a majority of remainers.

    Hard Brexiteers make out every Leave voter voted for their Hard Brexit. But Hard Brexit was not on the referendum paper, it was only Remain or Leave. It didn’t say we had to Leave in a certain way. Indeed, when campaigning for Leave we had:

    Farage’s all out WTO Brexit.
    Johnson’s “have our cake and eat it” Brexit.
    Hanan’s “inside the Customs Union and Single Market” Brexit.
    The Bus’s everything goes to the NHS Brexit.
    And even an anti-establishment anti-Cameron vote Brexit.

    So people voting for Leave knew what they voted for, but Leave meant different things to different people. There’s been an opinion poll that says “just” 14% of those who voted Leave would now vote for Theresa May’s Brexit Deal. But when putting that with the Remain vote means a Hard Brexit has no majority.

    Those voting for Leave were ALL voting for a Negotiated Brexit. So had that negotiation come back with a Hard Brexit under WTO rules – although I voted Remain – that would’ve been democracy at work and I’d accept it. But that didn’t happen.

    The Negotiated Brexit that actually did come back is May’s Deal and that is democracy. May’s Deal isn’t what I want but this is democracy; I accept the deal and hope it goes through. As far as I am concerned Hard Brexiteers are as bad as Hard Remoaners, they are BOTH standing in the way of BREXIT, and BOTH standing in the way of DEMOCRACY.

    Good Luck Mrs May. :rose:

    value is everything
    #1388890
    Matron
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    “I think it is questionable whether he should have promised it in the first place. “Questionable” as in… I can see both sides on whether he should or should not have promised/called one – as my previous post indicates.”

    No, again.

    He didn’t have a choice as this was agreed before he became PM to appease the members of his party that had wanted one for years; he probably would not have become leader of the party without conceding to this.

    Politics is a dirty business and “wheeling and dealing” goes on all the time.

    Both of my late parents were both highly involved with Tory politics so I did learn a thing or two.

    #1388892
    GoldenMiller34
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    Events are moving fast. It now looks like we will end up with no Brexit and a late Spring GE.

    #1388894
    Gingertipster
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    He didn’t have a choice as this was agreed before he became PM to appease the members of his party that had wanted one for years; he probably would not have become leader of the party without conceding to this.

    I’d describe my own political views are somewhere between David Cameron and Ken Clarke and have admiration for the former PM. Am sure Cameron had his reasons for promising a Referendum, Matron… And in many ways I personally can understand why he made that decision – am not saying it was the wrong decision – I can just see both views and in his position not sure which way I’d go.

    But even if as a result he did not become Prime Minister, Cameron did have a choice. Therefore, imo is still questionable whether he should have agreed a referendum – whenever he made the commitment.

    value is everything
    #1388977
    Matron
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    “Therefore, imo is still questionable whether he should have agreed a referendum – whenever he made the commitment”

    If hadn’t agreed he would never had made PM.

    People have long memories in The House of Commons and would have made things awkward for him.

    #1389256
    Gingertipster
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    Junker is a wa…. :negative:

    value is everything
    #1389393
    Drone
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    The opinion that not only Juncker but also Tusk, Barnier and the whole bunch of Eurocrats in Brussels are all onanists is a view that ardent Brexiteers dearly love to cultivate and encourage our populace to believe; which is why a second referendum – demanded largely by those who want another chance for Remain to triumph, however carefully they avoid stating it – is likely, in my opinion, to strengthen the Leave vote or ‘Leave with no deal’ vote if, as some seem to think is a good idea, the referendum would be ternary

    Why should the EU be anything other than tough with the UK? We decided to leave, they didn’t want us to; therefore it’s for them to demand the terms they want

    We don’t get what we want, hard cheese: we made our bed of nails now we have to sleep on it

    #1389410
    GoldenMiller34
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    Hear hear, Drone. At least Rudd is now encouraging May to talk to other parties. There are scores of scenarios as to how all this might pan out so it’s pointless me writing a page long comment, a lot depends on the exact sequence of events which is impossible to predict. I currently maintain there will be no Brexit, there will be a late spring GE. I think there would have to be a GE before any second referendum and a referendum would be binary not ternary because once A50 is suspended, which it would have to be, the current deal is wiped off the table automatically.

    #1389442
    Gingertipster
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    EU fighting their corner is fine. Insulting people is another.
    Junker knew exactly what he was saying.
    If going to another referendum, is not helping his cause.

    value is everything
    #1389465
    Gingertipster
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    tbh Can understand both points of view over the “backstop”.
    Uk naturally don’t want the EU being able to prevent the UK leaving. But equally, if there is a date when/or if UK can get rid of it unilaterally – then it is not a backstop. ie UK could just wait to a certain date and get rid of it. Ireland needs its insurances, Uk needs its insurances… And I don’t see a way out.

    The Northern Ireland question – together with a much greater risk of Scotland leaving the UK- was one of the main reasons I voted remain.

    value is everything
    #1389469
    Gingertipster
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    Hear hear, Drone. At least Rudd is now encouraging May to talk to other parties. There are scores of scenarios as to how all this might pan out so it’s pointless me writing a page long comment, a lot depends on the exact sequence of events which is impossible to predict. I currently maintain there will be no Brexit, there will be a late spring GE. I think there would have to be a GE before any second referendum and a referendum would be binary not ternary because once A50 is suspended, which it would have to be, the current deal is wiped off the table automatically.

    GM,
    If Mrs May did talk to Labour MPs what’s the betting Labour want the impossible?
    Labour Party could do what’s best for democracy and for the country right now! By supporting this deal through Parliament; respecting the Brexit result whilst protecting UK jobs and economy – ie As ex-Labour Home, Health and Education Secretary Alan Johnson says; it’s a deal which is as close to Labour’s “six tests” as you’re going to get from a Brexit that respects the referendum result. Labour might want a Customs Union and Single Market etc, but that in turn means a continuation of “free movement” and the UK unable to sign its own trade deals with the World – both extremely important issues in the Referendum and therefore not respect the referendum result… But at at a moment when yes, parties should come together and agree a Respectful Brexit – the Labour Party is only interested a General Election/their own personal party interests… And who else should May talk to? Liberals want a Referendum, SNP want a referendum, DUP want an impossibility. They’re all refusing to talk to each other

    I’d have prefered a Remain Vote, but the vote was to Leave. If we have another Referendum what would be the question? Will we have a third, fourth, fifth until the EU gets the result they want? What if Remain win by 52% to 48%? Is that result invalid too? If Remain won why should Brexiteers respect the result?

    Of course Remainers should not get what they want (that we Remain). But the Brexit result wasn’t as clear cut as Brexiteers make out either. Yes it was 17 Million, but still only 52% to 48%. So Hard Brexiteers should not get all of what they want either. Of course Hard Brexiteers don’t like May’s deal, of course Hard Remainers don’t like this deal. But in many ways the close referendum result means May’s Brexit deal would be a fair result.

    value is everything
    #1389470
    Drone
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    Junker knew exactly what he was saying.

    And May knew the cameras would zoom in on a huddle with Juncker. ‘Go out and play the scorned woman’ she would have thought, and if not thought of herself then would have been advised to do so by her smoke, mirrors and snake-oil advisors

    Considering the ear-bashing she’s received from left, right and centre in recent months which would have floored the majority of lesser resolve I hardly think being called ‘nebulous’ by the exciting Jean-Claude would ruffle her feathers

    Nice one Theresa, the easily baited media were hooked as usual: too easy isn’t it?

    #1389482
    GoldenMiller34
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    Re-read my long post, Ginger, what’s best for the country now is a Labour government instead of the austerity-driven, racist, incompetent shambles currently at the helm. Labour’s softest of soft Brexits would afford the degree of respect warranted by a Leave campaign that broke electoral rules and lied. It’s obvious now the full facts are known it is in the country’s best interests to remain. It’s a bit rich to criticise the opposition for being self-interested when it has had no say whatsoever in the botched negotiating process, especially as the reason it has been denied a voice is that the Tories entered into a pact with the DUP in its own interest of remaining in power. The price of doing so is the backstop and the present impasse.

    It’s what is going to happen that is the real interest. Over the weekend and in Monday morning’s cabinet meeting May will decide what she is going to tell the House later that day. Whatever she might of got from the EU summit would not have resolved the parliamentary arithmetic, however, she put the other leaders’ backs up by dint of her obfuscation and got less than they were originally willing to offer. She has been told to find out clearly what parliament wants. The cabinet appears too divided to force her to, therefore, she should realise herself that the MV should be held this week. It is imperative and urgent. It is not in the national interest to allow another month to tick by. I expect, though, she will continue to say she will have more talks with the EU. It’s laughable. They will prove fruitless. A Tory leader, if the government survives, will have to talk to the other parties at some point, the sooner the better.

    We need to have the MV and the six allowed amendments to it and the government to make a statement as to its intentions (within 5-10 days after) based on the outcome. Only then can a no-confidence vote be wisely tabled. Unless the DUP tells Labour it will support such a motion this week. No Deal would not just be a terrible outcome for the Republic and the island of Ireland in the short to medium term but also threaten the Union in the slightly longer term in the DUP’s eyes. As would a border in the Irish sea. The DUP’s best outcomes are the very soft Brexit (as above) or no Brexit.

    #1389495
    Gingertipster
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    It’s a bit rich to criticise the opposition for being self-interested when it has had no say whatsoever in the botched negotiating process, especially as the reason it has been denied a voice is that the Tories entered into a pact with the DUP in its own interest of remaining in power. The price of doing so is the backstop and the present impasse.

    You do know, the DUP don’t like the backstop? :whistle:

    value is everything
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